Of course if you have not already viewed them, please first view the following, or you’ll miss a good bit of where things pick up at in Part 3.
Please withhold comments till finished viewing the video below in full.
If the video ever pauses on its own, just advance it manually a little for it to get going again.
Notice in this episode, they note Pat Robertson making a heretical statement about being able to “demand” things. Over 15 years ago, Christians were refuting the same false teachers we see and hear in media today, with the Word of God. And thank God through Jesus Christ, that the material refuting false teachers is still available.
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October 24th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Question: Can false teachers/prophets be saved or is one who does so already reprobate? The host described how false prophets had been treated historically and he even gave an example of how Elijah had mocked 400 of them before ultimately killing them. The guest preacher almost appeared to chide the host, saying that his position was to continue to pray for the salvation of those who teach in error. Of course I understand that God can save anyone and that we all must be washed of our sins. However, everytime I read scripture pertaining to this sort of sin (false prophets) there is more than one reference suggesting that they may already be lost. In Galations 1:9 it says those who teach another gospel are anathema (accursed). In 2nd Peter 2 I also read that their damnation slumbereth not. Jude 4 also refers to the false teacher as being “before of old reserved to condemnation” and “ungodly”. Even in Revelation 22:18-19, the bible says whoever adds onto or takes away from the prophecy of the book, plagues will be added to him, or his/her name will be taken out of the book of life. Can someone please clarify? This is an excellent series, by the way.
IndependentConservative reply on October 24th, 2008 at 1:45 pm :
A false teacher is a reprobate, but anyone can be saved and their sins forgiven, if they are elect of God, granted repentance and come to knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 (New American Standard Bible)
That is the command of God that the ministers are working under. Also they’ve mentioned James 5:19-20.
Also keep in mind, well you’ll see in Part 4, the punishment for the follower of a false prophet is the same as that of the false prophet. So we’re not only talking about the false prophets, but those who follow them too. And some of us used to follow some of them, but God granted us mercy we didn’t deserve of ourselves. Lord willing, more of the deluded will come to know the truth and turn from wickedness.
October 24th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Hey Darnell:
My wife showed this to me today and I had to share it with you.
Cornerstone Ministries Investments has filed a motion with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court seeking an extension of the exclusive period during which the company can file a plan of reorganization to September 8, 2008 and an extension of time to solicit acceptances until November 7, 2008.
Here’s the link:
http://www.totalbankruptcy.com/business_bankruptcies.htm#businessbnk
IndependentConservative reply on October 24th, 2008 at 2:34 pm :
This is not associated with pulpit pimp John Hagee is it? They are GA based, or is it affiliated with Hagee and was started in GA instead of TX?
http://www.cmiatlanta.com/
http://www.georgiabankruptcyblog.com/archives/northern-district-cases-cornerstone-ministries-investments-inc-lender-to-churches-and-faithbased-organizations-files-chapter-11-petition.html
Anyway, what a shame…
How can a “ministry” hold an investment group? Ministries are not supposed to be loaning at interest.
October 24th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
IC: I thought a reprobate could not be saved, but God has turned them over to their lusts. I too am thankful for the mercies of God because I am one who existed and served under false teachings for a number of years. However, back then I was essentially not equipped to discern the teachings of our former minister against the Word. All I could do then was to say aloud, “something is not adding up here, he doesn’t seem to know how to practice what he just preached.. What’s up with that? All the while everyone else said, “Leave him alone and let God deal with him”. I continued to pray about it and eventually the Lord allowed me to see what I could comprehend without further confusion. The man was blatantly out of order with an over reaching sex life, and he was unrepentent and resistant to any correction whatsoever. With that, it was easy to understand it was time to move on. Of course, I know it’s only right that we should care enough about the brethren to expose the false teachers and warn those who may not be putting the pieces together as yet. And the bible says so. But perhaps, (and this is just the wheels turning in my own head) God is simply having mercy upon those who don’t know any better? I read 2nd Tim 2:24-26 and then went further back where ironically, Paul warned about the false teachers in 2 Tim 2:18-21; namely, Hymenaus and Philetus. He went on to say that the Lord knows who is His, to depart from that sort of iniquity, and in a great house there will be vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and earth, some to honor and some to dishonor, and if a man therefore purge himself from these (the false teacher?) we shall be vessels of honor. Again, I’m gleening from the verses that these, Hymenauus and Philitus were likened unto the vessels of wood, earth and dishonor. On the other hand, when the bible says be gentle unto all men, then this is right, no matter what I may think. In the end, I guess it couldn’t hurt to pray for them (the wolves) too, but I just can’t seem to reconcile why the scriptures seem to be saying that these folks are already lost. Oh well, this will just have to be one of those things I guess. Thanks for your previous response IC, and for your patience in the meantime.
IndependentConservative reply on October 24th, 2008 at 4:50 pm :
456charlie - I’m sure many thought the thief on the cross was going to hell, but he got a last minute get out of hell free card
.
We don’t know exactly who is the Lord’s or when He will call them to repentance. So long as they are breathing, we can only pray if the Lord wills, that they repent and vigorously, openly, by name, contend against them.
Paul once thought he was doing the will of God to kill saints.
And like I mentioned, some who once were lock step with false doctrines, even teachers of it, have been turned by the Lord for the better.
We don’t know who the Lord will save or leave. We can only look at what people are doing and hope they show they’re one of the saved in their actions, because we know when they are denying the gospel that they’re not yet saved, if they ever will be.
And with people we see who are actually proclaiming the truth of the gospel, we can only pray their heart is sincere, because the Lord knows who is really His own. So if anyone is not true that may look like a saint to us, He’ll find them out.
October 25th, 2008 at 12:34 am
I agree. God knows His own. I too, was that thief on the cross, clueless and hopeless until Jesus saved me from my sins. And true, Paul was zealous for God, but he didn’t have the right knowledge of HIM. Believe me, I know that the seemingly most hopeless person in all of humanity can be washed by the blood of Jesus, if God says, this one belongs to me. I suppose in the end the litmus test is, when the false teacher finally SEES JESUS, his heart should be changed forever, just like you and I were, and just as the examples in scripture we’ve discussed. I don’t see the harm in trying to win them (the false teacher) for Christ, however, I still cannot ignore that the scriptures do tend to be language specific as it pertains to them. And again by them, I don’t mean everyone, but the false teacher in particular. Everytime I read as it pertains to them, the Word suggests there is a certain mindset that got them to that point in the first place. They come with the intent to deceive, or were exposed to the truth of the Word, but still departed from it. The Word of God does go to the trouble to say, not me, but the bible says, that those who “creep into houses” are the same who “bring upon themselves swift destruction” and “are accursed” and are “ordained to this condemnation” Even in Romans 1, where it isn’t speaking of False teachers/prophets specifically, yet the acts described therein are in full operation in the life of a false teacher. Again, God doesn’t appear to even allow them to have a right mind again, but lets them continue down that slippery slope. Just as the bible says, these folks tend to get worse and do not repent. Have you actually seen any come around? I see them getting more delusional and the Romans 1:21 seems to confirm it. “Because that, when they knew God, they glorififed him not as God, neither were thankful: but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptable God made into an image made like to corruptable men…”
I don’t know about you, but I have not seen one who has turned back once on this path. Of course it doesn’t mean one never has, but the bible seems to say that they can’t. Sorry for going round and round on this point, but I think I’m finally done, now. Again, thanks for your time.
Thanks for hearing me work this out on my keyboard.
IndependentConservative reply on October 25th, 2008 at 1:31 am :
Does any reprobate actually have the “right knowledge of Him”? It’s not like Paul had not heard of the Gospel of Jesus before. He simply did not believe it till the Lord called him to repentance. Even a false teacher that talks the talk, but does not believe is really no different at all. They don’t really have a right knowledge of the Lord, or they would not be false teachers. They may have appeared to look true at one time, but their apostasy proves what they never really believed and as John said they were shown to not be of us because they never were actually with us, 1 John 2:19. The false teacher was not somehow saved and somehow lost salvation, they never really have found true repentance. They like the deluded who follow them learned some, but never came to knowledge of the truth.
You do know the people Paul said preach other gospels and were to be accursed included Pharisee, of which he was once one himself.
If one does not come to know the truth as the Lord wills, than yes they will die in their sins.
With some of them, that is the case. But it seems you’re trying to consider that a false teacher simply never will know repentance. That is not our call to make and if one of them should repent, the Lord’s will be done and they should be welcomed as a fellow saint. This is how it was with Paul, he very much appeared to be accursed and heading downward, but the Lord saved Him. All who are in sin are on a slope to hell with a follow up to the lake of fire, but we share the truth with all, warn about those who are to be avoided and leave it to the Lord from there.
You’re missing that PAUL WAS ONE. He really was one totally endorsing a false form of gospel of works. I think you should read more carefully about when Paul speaks against those who try and hold saints down with the law. It’s the basis for a great portion of all God had him to write. It was one of the heresies promoted by false teachers, that the Apostles spent a great deal of their time contending against. Acts, Galatians, Romans, these and other books are very much full of detail of contending against false teachers who were of the Pharisee doctrine.
We all agree the false teachers are only getting worse. We all agree they should be avoided. We all agree they are on their way to destruction in their current state. And if the Lord wills, some or them will turn and be saved, we don’t know who, just as nobody knew Paul would be converted.
And again, I think you should review the history of many who expose false teachers today, many were once teaching it. Some people I’ve presented here used to. You should not feel there is a “lock” that because false teachers get worse and worse, that none will be saved, we don’t know who God will grant repentance to. If we say no false teacher will ever be turned to repentance, than lets think of scripture that says fornicators will burn in hell and assert none can be saved and so on, we know fornicators can be saved too. Romans 1 applies to way more than false teachers, it applies to all of humanity.
Much of what you might cite from someone such as Peter in 2 Peter 2 is a reflection of words of Christ in scripture such as Matthew 23. And Jesus was speaking about the Pharisee of that time and it simply applies to many others of the same ilk. But there are Pharisee and others who do repent.
The Pharisee, are tied way more closely to this than I think you realize.
The Bible says God may save anyone He chooses, there is no avoiding 2 Timothy 2:24-26. Some do turn and we should not claim God can’t save any given person. Because scripture says “perhaps God may grant them repentance”. I’m not at all trying to say every false teacher is going to be saved, many of them will fulfill scripture’s mention of false teachers going to destruction, but I’m saying the Lord does turn some, just as He turned Paul.
We see there was a very reprobate individual in the church in 1 Corinthians 5, but they were restored in 2 Corinthians 2.
There are some people we totally disassociate from, but we can’t claim the Lord never might grant them repentance before they take their last breath.