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	<title>Comments on: So You Just Realized So-Called Church Tithing is Unbiblical.  Now What?</title>
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	<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/</link>
	<description>The Independent Conservative saying what needs to be said!</description>
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		<title>By: rascoe1</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11158</link>
		<dc:creator>rascoe1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11158</guid>
		<description>How much lower will they go?  I wonder whats next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How much lower will they go?  I wonder whats next.</p>
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		<title>By: ncatina</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11153</link>
		<dc:creator>ncatina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11153</guid>
		<description>Very interesting video.  Great summation of the guilt trip played on people regarding warped giving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting video.  Great summation of the guilt trip played on people regarding warped giving.</p>
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		<title>By: IndependentConservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11152</link>
		<dc:creator>IndependentConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11152</guid>
		<description>Yea &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upmyrinWq64&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;ve seen it.&lt;/a&gt; 

Considering &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&amp;version=49;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Matthew 25:31-46&lt;/a&gt;, I was wondering why &quot;God&quot; would be sitting around hoping I give him a piece of pie?  I mean Jesus says our brother in need is where we see Him, so it seems the guy should have been giving a slice to a brother or sister who was in need.  But nobody like that was in the video at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upmyrinWq64" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;ve seen it.</a> </p>
<p>Considering <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&amp;version=49;" rel="nofollow">Matthew 25:31-46</a>, I was wondering why &#8220;God&#8221; would be sitting around hoping I give him a piece of pie?  I mean Jesus says our brother in need is where we see Him, so it seems the guy should have been giving a slice to a brother or sister who was in need.  But nobody like that was in the video at all.</p>
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		<title>By: rascoe1</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11151</link>
		<dc:creator>rascoe1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11151</guid>
		<description>IC did you see the clip, &quot;God Pie&quot;.  It is the latest method used to send church members on a guilt trip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IC did you see the clip, &#8220;God Pie&#8221;.  It is the latest method used to send church members on a guilt trip.</p>
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		<title>By: Airbrush Artist</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11147</link>
		<dc:creator>Airbrush Artist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11147</guid>
		<description>I have Been a financial failure Most of my adult Life,I&#039;ve Shed tears of Shame privately before My Lord many Times and Have many times Not went to Worship on Sunday Morning because I couldn&#039;t &#039;Give Unto the Lord As I was taught or Thought thats what God wanted.Oh, I gave small amounts and at times I was Blessed to give a few Large amounts mainly due to windfalls.I believe My largest amount for one Year was $650.The Church I attended for 26 years taught Tithing was 10% 0f my net income.I always dreaded the end of the year when we were to commit The amount We were to Give the Following Year.Usually I would Put a amount Knowing in My heart I wouldn&#039;t keep up My faith Pledge for the new year.After 26 years My church Built a new family Christian center of Which We were ask To Commit too that in addition to the Tithe That I was already such a Failure at, In My mind.I knew I was finished ,I did not commit to Buying a brick as they built the wall one Sunday morning In front of the Congregation,on your Brick you walked forward and Put a $ amount on &quot;Your&quot; brick.I thought in my mind If I can&#039;t meet my tithe how was I ever going to meet this Commitment? 2 weeks later after 26 years I Left My Church Home of 26 years.I had a few close friends call with a tepid where You been, We miss you but those Soon stopped ,That always has pained My heart but It was, as it was.One point in My failure I&#039;m reminded in my thoughts that if God was mad at me, why is My Life So Blessed?That was reassuring to realize that truth in My Life ,even too this very day. I also realize Now that I&#039;m to Give too God not only Money but others things as well,The one thing thats constant in our Lives is Gods Word ,I&#039;m now set free form that bondage through the Words of 2 Corinthians Chapter 9 verse 7-Praise Be to God for His everlasting Word...even in the midst of My financial Failure-----</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have Been a financial failure Most of my adult Life,I&#8217;ve Shed tears of Shame privately before My Lord many Times and Have many times Not went to Worship on Sunday Morning because I couldn&#8217;t &#8216;Give Unto the Lord As I was taught or Thought thats what God wanted.Oh, I gave small amounts and at times I was Blessed to give a few Large amounts mainly due to windfalls.I believe My largest amount for one Year was $650.The Church I attended for 26 years taught Tithing was 10% 0f my net income.I always dreaded the end of the year when we were to commit The amount We were to Give the Following Year.Usually I would Put a amount Knowing in My heart I wouldn&#8217;t keep up My faith Pledge for the new year.After 26 years My church Built a new family Christian center of Which We were ask To Commit too that in addition to the Tithe That I was already such a Failure at, In My mind.I knew I was finished ,I did not commit to Buying a brick as they built the wall one Sunday morning In front of the Congregation,on your Brick you walked forward and Put a $ amount on &#8220;Your&#8221; brick.I thought in my mind If I can&#8217;t meet my tithe how was I ever going to meet this Commitment? 2 weeks later after 26 years I Left My Church Home of 26 years.I had a few close friends call with a tepid where You been, We miss you but those Soon stopped ,That always has pained My heart but It was, as it was.One point in My failure I&#8217;m reminded in my thoughts that if God was mad at me, why is My Life So Blessed?That was reassuring to realize that truth in My Life ,even too this very day. I also realize Now that I&#8217;m to Give too God not only Money but others things as well,The one thing thats constant in our Lives is Gods Word ,I&#8217;m now set free form that bondage through the Words of 2 Corinthians Chapter 9 verse 7-Praise Be to God for His everlasting Word&#8230;even in the midst of My financial Failure&#8212;&#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: stan</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11136</link>
		<dc:creator>stan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11136</guid>
		<description>Amen to the always-doing-good issue. 

The &quot;time tithe&quot; was most often a way of tithing in lieu of money, from the policies I remember on that subject. Ncatina&#039;s experience was that the church demanded both time &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; money tithes. And the service tithe was primarily on behalf of the church facility itself or its attending workload. No special regard given necessarily to the person&#039;s calling. 
 
I know that many Christian schools allow a parent to tithe time when they were short on tuition. They could be conscripted to become drivers, chaperones, office workers, fundraising chairpersons and workers, teacher and coach assistants, etc., to meet their shortfall. In that case, though, there is a legitimate debt that the parent&#039;s time offsets. A monetary value is assigned by the school ahead of time to the work to be done so that the tuition&#039;s balance due can be slowly satisfied.

Yet, predatorily, the same attitude and procedure is taken by tithing churches like Ncatina spoke of, based on the premise that the money tithe is a legitimate debt that can be offset the same way by certain labors that the church itself creates to be done. They do not regard the person&#039;s own calling in that calculation, unless, by chance, the work assigned to a particular individual is within that person&#039;s calling.  The abuse comes with believers not being able to fulfill their own God-given ministry because so much of their time is taken up in these arbitrary duties. So, if someone admits to not being able to tithe monetarily, they&#039;ll end up with double duty for the church (read: pastor&#039;s empire). So, what&#039;s double duty then- 34 hours? Oy vey. Hence, burn out, resentment and unresolved guilt. The root of bitterness springing up to defile many; and all created over money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to the always-doing-good issue. </p>
<p>The &#8220;time tithe&#8221; was most often a way of tithing in lieu of money, from the policies I remember on that subject. Ncatina&#8217;s experience was that the church demanded both time <i>and</i> money tithes. And the service tithe was primarily on behalf of the church facility itself or its attending workload. No special regard given necessarily to the person&#8217;s calling. </p>
<p>I know that many Christian schools allow a parent to tithe time when they were short on tuition. They could be conscripted to become drivers, chaperones, office workers, fundraising chairpersons and workers, teacher and coach assistants, etc., to meet their shortfall. In that case, though, there is a legitimate debt that the parent&#8217;s time offsets. A monetary value is assigned by the school ahead of time to the work to be done so that the tuition&#8217;s balance due can be slowly satisfied.</p>
<p>Yet, predatorily, the same attitude and procedure is taken by tithing churches like Ncatina spoke of, based on the premise that the money tithe is a legitimate debt that can be offset the same way by certain labors that the church itself creates to be done. They do not regard the person&#8217;s own calling in that calculation, unless, by chance, the work assigned to a particular individual is within that person&#8217;s calling.  The abuse comes with believers not being able to fulfill their own God-given ministry because so much of their time is taken up in these arbitrary duties. So, if someone admits to not being able to tithe monetarily, they&#8217;ll end up with double duty for the church (read: pastor&#8217;s empire). So, what&#8217;s double duty then- 34 hours? Oy vey. Hence, burn out, resentment and unresolved guilt. The root of bitterness springing up to defile many; and all created over money.</p>
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		<title>By: IndependentConservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11134</link>
		<dc:creator>IndependentConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11134</guid>
		<description>CT Jermin, if you&#039;d like I can send key2truth your e-mail address?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CT Jermin, if you&#8217;d like I can send key2truth your e-mail address?</p>
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		<title>By: key2truth</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11133</link>
		<dc:creator>key2truth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11133</guid>
		<description>CT Jermin, nice reading your piece. Glad to hear that you are in the NY metro area. I would really love to get in touch with your group. Do you mind telling me your exact location?
Christocentric, I&#039;m glad you found a church that knows upfront that you don&#039;t believe in tithing and still took you in. Now you really have to prayerfully transform them from inside out since you are armed with the truth!
God bless you all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CT Jermin, nice reading your piece. Glad to hear that you are in the NY metro area. I would really love to get in touch with your group. Do you mind telling me your exact location?<br />
Christocentric, I&#8217;m glad you found a church that knows upfront that you don&#8217;t believe in tithing and still took you in. Now you really have to prayerfully transform them from inside out since you are armed with the truth!<br />
God bless you all.</p>
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		<title>By: IndependentConservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11132</link>
		<dc:creator>IndependentConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11132</guid>
		<description>Stan you know the BAD TRADITION known as &quot;church tithing&quot; is always based on GROSS.  So you&#039;d have to give 17 hours ;) .  

Even when I was caught up in the 10% scam, I didn&#039;t really &quot;get&quot; the &quot;tithe your time&quot; concept.  I thought Christians were always supposed to do good continually as we are able.  I never put any stock in having to have 10% of my &quot;time&quot; at &quot;home church&quot;.

Some assemblies are able to use things like an &quot;assessment&quot; of members&#039; skills, abilities and seeing what the Lord has gifted the members with, without using the information for abusive purposes.  Some use it to help saints better realize how they might be most effective in doing good works and ministry.  But the pimps, anything given to them is bound to be abused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stan you know the BAD TRADITION known as &#8220;church tithing&#8221; is always based on GROSS.  So you&#8217;d have to give 17 hours <img src='http://www.independentconservative.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  .  </p>
<p>Even when I was caught up in the 10% scam, I didn&#8217;t really &#8220;get&#8221; the &#8220;tithe your time&#8221; concept.  I thought Christians were always supposed to do good continually as we are able.  I never put any stock in having to have 10% of my &#8220;time&#8221; at &#8220;home church&#8221;.</p>
<p>Some assemblies are able to use things like an &#8220;assessment&#8221; of members&#8217; skills, abilities and seeing what the Lord has gifted the members with, without using the information for abusive purposes.  Some use it to help saints better realize how they might be most effective in doing good works and ministry.  But the pimps, anything given to them is bound to be abused.</p>
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		<title>By: stan</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/08/21/responding_to_pro_tithe_critics/comment-page-1/#comment-11131</link>
		<dc:creator>stan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=2223#comment-11131</guid>
		<description>Ncatina, I have heard that same argument about tithing your time (and I used it back then). So, was it based on a tenth of the 168 hour week (about 17 hours) or based on one tenth of the waking week (1/3 off to 112 hours) to 11 hours or one tenth of the non-working hours (another third or so off) making it about 5.5 hours a week? You&#039;d need a time clock with things like payroll cards to handle that strict accounting. 

&lt;i&gt;These actiities are all designed to rip people for their time, talent, energy AND money for the exclusive benefit to the organization/overseer, and direct detriment of the giver.&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re right. Since pastors have arbitrarily (without scriptural mandate) created little empires with palaces (church buildings) as their capitols, and them as kings; you become the serfs.  This is an ongoing fulfillment of what the Lord said to the Israelites when they wanted a king like other nations (1 Sam 8:11-18). For such misappropriations of God&#039;s servants for their own legacy, they must answer for it one day; for it is in direct disobedience to Mark 10:42-43 and 1 Pet 5:3.

&lt;i&gt;Because so many people involved in these &quot;ministries&quot; serving within the church see the organiztion as God Himself, once they burn out and contemplate leaving, out of misguided fear, they feel they will leave God Himself.&lt;/i&gt;

Right on!

Money, money, money. The desire for it ruins so many and the church is not exempt. That love is thorns growing up to choke off the Word. God protect us from that temptation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ncatina, I have heard that same argument about tithing your time (and I used it back then). So, was it based on a tenth of the 168 hour week (about 17 hours) or based on one tenth of the waking week (1/3 off to 112 hours) to 11 hours or one tenth of the non-working hours (another third or so off) making it about 5.5 hours a week? You&#8217;d need a time clock with things like payroll cards to handle that strict accounting. </p>
<p><i>These actiities are all designed to rip people for their time, talent, energy AND money for the exclusive benefit to the organization/overseer, and direct detriment of the giver.</i></p>
<p>You&#8217;re right. Since pastors have arbitrarily (without scriptural mandate) created little empires with palaces (church buildings) as their capitols, and them as kings; you become the serfs.  This is an ongoing fulfillment of what the Lord said to the Israelites when they wanted a king like other nations (1 Sam 8:11-18). For such misappropriations of God&#8217;s servants for their own legacy, they must answer for it one day; for it is in direct disobedience to Mark 10:42-43 and 1 Pet 5:3.</p>
<p><i>Because so many people involved in these &#8220;ministries&#8221; serving within the church see the organiztion as God Himself, once they burn out and contemplate leaving, out of misguided fear, they feel they will leave God Himself.</i></p>
<p>Right on!</p>
<p>Money, money, money. The desire for it ruins so many and the church is not exempt. That love is thorns growing up to choke off the Word. God protect us from that temptation.</p>
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