Hat tip goes to rascoe1 for finding this.
EXTORTION IN THE CHURCH? Jamaica Star
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Of course all the other area pastors the newspaper questioned claim that telling people to pay via a man contrived system that fails the Bible established giving standard for the church in 2 Corinthians 9:7 is OK.
To tell people they are supposed to pay 10% based on old covenant law is never anything that any apostle of the Lord Jesus told any church to ever do. Which makes today’s system of so-called “church tithing” nothing more than man made tradition. Not a single solitary church in scripture EVER was instructed to engage in some system of paying 10% of money wages, never. Gentiles didn’t know about Jewish customs and no such burden as a “tithe” was ever placed on the church.
If you think I’m wrong to say what I said, I’d highly HIGHLY recommend you read the “related posts” below in full before you comment.
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June 24th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Good for that Pastor Campbell. What a great idea for his local community. I am sure he will receive a firestorm of opposition from all the other pastors. He should rejoice when it happens, as Jesus says.
A tithe is a tax and a hefty one at that. Churches collect so much from their members that they are unable to obey the Lord. Meaning, they are left with nothing to give alms with. Giving to support expensive hard assets and their support structures and staff are therefore obstacles to Christian charity and obedience.
June 24th, 2008 at 2:10 am
I am so glad that more and more pastors are speaking out against tithing. I just couldn’t figure out how a pastor who could preach the word of God so soundly until they get to Malachi 3:10. All of a sudden, back to legalism in the form of the 10% tithe.
It’s very insulting as well, because the pastors are assuming that we don’t know the scriptures well enough to know what it teaches. Or, the pastors are arrogant enough to believe they know the true meaning of tithing. Either way, it’s sad. Where I live, I haven’t found one pastor that doesn’t teach tithing, including my own.
Why won’t I change churches? Because I told myself I’ll never criticize and leave a church without speaking to the pastor first. I’ll be requesting a meeting soon to voice my concerns of the teachings. I’m thankful to men like Russell Kelly whose material I’ve been using to equip myself with the right words and scriptures to at least give an intelligent and scriptural reason why we shouldn’t tithe.
You would think the simplicity of 2 Corinthians 9:7 would reach more pastors, but sadly it doesn’t.
IndependentConservative reply on June 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pm :
Yea once I learned the truth about giving, I knew there is no way the teachers that are so sound in other areas are all just “missing it” regarding tithing. And in time I learned some really do know better and really consciously are aware they don’t teach giving right. In private some will admit it, if you have them in a room where they don’t feel the conversation is being recorded. They know what THEY want to fund and they’ve got it in their minds how they’re going to make it happen.
But it is good some are speaking out now with the truth.
rascoe1 reply on June 24th, 2008 at 4:44 pm :
Christocentric, do you believe there is less tithe givers than non tithe givers in the churches today.
Christocentric reply on June 24th, 2008 at 5:12 pm :
sorry about the misplaced reply. My reply to you rascoe is item number 4. (hope this lands in the right place)
June 24th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Mormons support the “tithe”….enough said.
IndependentConservative reply on June 24th, 2008 at 1:08 pm :
Yea the cult of Joseph Smith Junior bunch really has gone full circle on the matter. First they did it, then they had “revelation” they didn’t need to, then (when they probably saw the funding numbers were down) they had yet another “revelation” that the 10% scam had to come back.
But contradicting “revelations” are the norm for Mormonism, which totally contradicts the Bible.
June 24th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
rascoe, I don’t remember where I saw the stats, but it was a HUGE number who don’t tithe.
So, most preaching for congregations to tithe is falling upon deaf ears anyways.
IndependentConservative reply on June 24th, 2008 at 5:13 pm :
Well many are not paying it, but feeling guilty. Feeling guilty for no reason at all. Because they’re being misled into feeling they are supposed to be paying it if they really wanted to please God.
Christocentric reply on June 24th, 2008 at 5:34 pm :
Yes, people are made to feel guilty if they aren’t meeting their quota!
Fortunately, the pastor of this church doesn’t beat people down about not giving their 10%. He barely preaches about money at all and is centered upon the gospel. Sometimes I get the feeling he’s guilty about preaching about it (hmm, wonder why).
But the danger in expecting a tithe, is the thought that your church members are somehow “sinning” by not giving their 10%. Then that makes me wonder about a benevolent fund. How can you help those who need help if they are “sinning” in the first place?
Just makes one wonder, so I definitely have to talk to my pastor about my questions.
rascoe1 reply on June 24th, 2008 at 5:43 pm :
I understand that guilty feelings. About 5yrs ago I was reading a book that made me aware of the error of tithing. Before this I tithe on everything, even gifts. I did not just take the books word, I took my concordance, and my bible and did my own study on the matter. The thing is, after I found out the truth, I stopped tithing but began again at the begining of last year, under the umbrella of just giving (10% of my earnings), even encouraging my daughter to do so. I even bought into the first fruit scan last year (first fruit is to be given at the begining of the year). I must tell you though that this blog helped, (encouraging) to show me the error of even the guilt that I had not tithing.
The thing is , the church I attend makes a declaration before taking up tithes and offerings, I have always said it until the last couple of weeks, I start thinking it is wrong of me to be makeing this declaration as I am not a tither and have no intention of ever being one again. I do believe in giving though, just not tithe nor firstfruit.
rascoe1 reply on June 24th, 2008 at 5:50 pm :
Christocentric from experience, I find that members of the church are very giving. My former church have made appeals to the congregation for different people in need and always get an overwhelming response. People are very generous to people with needs, the problem is, giving the money in advance with the expectation that the pastors will do the right thing. They find everything to do with the money that is given, but the right thing.
Christocentric reply on June 24th, 2008 at 6:05 pm :
You know, people as a whole tend to be very big givers when it comes to needs. I really believe pastors short change themselves with the 10% rule. There are some who find they don’t need a lot of their wealth and can afford to give past the 10%.
I think of Pastor John MacArthur and his megachurch, radio ministries, colleges and etc. That man has never taught tithing and has tons of articles against it also! But is he needy? Is his church suffering?
Pastors need to follow his example and trust God for the true giving of their churches.
rascoe1 reply on June 24th, 2008 at 6:17 pm :
You are right Christocentric, I was rereading a one of the related post IC suggested. In it SteelGator commented on someone that he know, who does what he call “reverse tithing”, giving away the 90%, to the poor and missionaries.
speakingtruth reply on June 26th, 2008 at 10:33 am :
rascoe1, you said:
That declaration (also known as “the givers confession”) is the pimps way of hypnotizing you into repetively “confessing” your “gift”, thus giving it more freely since you’ve “declared blessings” as a result of surrendering it.
The pimp at my old plantation used to get us to repeat the givers confession, and I stopped repeating it before I fled as well - primarily because he wanted us to pledge our money AND our allegiance to him (side note to IC - when are you gonna finish working on your “giver’s confession” post? C’mon already, man :-D</em)
The tithe has become the most time tested scam in the Body of Christ - primarily because the pimps can count on it as a steady stream of weekly revenue.
If your pastor is having you recite a confession before giving, I highly doubt that a private talk with him about his error would enlighten him - you might want to start seeking another assembly to worship with…
rascoe1 reply on June 26th, 2008 at 3:18 pm :
Speakingtruth, you are right. It will take some time though. We have been in Georgia for 2 years, we first visited a church in Conyers and it was just crazy. A small church with big plans. It was a little fifedom with the pastor, his apostle wife and family members running the show. I think they are friends of Juanita Bynum.
One Sunday just towards the end of the service, she told us the glory of God (in the form of a cloud) was to hovering in the building. She suggested that we all gather under this cloud to be blessed. I am really embarassed to say I did believe her. Why would she lie in church? It took a little while before I realised that we were being duped. I think that whole “glory in cloud” business, she got from Juanita Bynum. We left soon after, we stayed ther about two months.
The church I now attend is ok, the pastor preaches the Word, most of the time, (I have heard error). He does believe in tithing and firstfruit. I know he, like most will not be open to any dialogue on such matter.
IndependentConservative reply on June 26th, 2008 at 3:41 pm :
ST, yea I’m going to get the “recite this and give me your money” post out at some point. This blog behind the scenes remains in a perpetual state of log jam
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Always posts that are yet to come out and still in the works. And always things I never get an opportunity to address at all. And always things that come up. The post is coming though. It really has been started, but won’t be ready for posting for a while given the “log jam”.
speakingtruth reply on June 26th, 2008 at 3:55 pm :
rascoe1, you said:
Well, that (to me) sounds like the perfect reason to look for the door!
As you know from my blog - I also reside in the metro-Atlanta area, and I’ve been without a formal church home all of this year. I’m visiting assemblies at the direction of the Lord, but I also share the Word with my family (one of my children begged me to “preach” one Sunday morning so that we wouldn’t have to visit another church :lol:). I really want to join a fellowship of believers, but I also REFUSE to submit to blatant error and games again. I know that no one is perfect, but I’ll avoid an intentional pimp/false teacher as if my life depended on it.
I don’t know if you saw the post I did earlier this year detailing the importance of staying away from false teachers. Whenever we find error as it relates to the preaching of the Word of God AND we cannot address that error with the pastor, then we need to keep it moving because you’re wasting your time.
Stay in prayer - and be on the lookout for another assembly…
rascoe1 reply on June 26th, 2008 at 4:48 pm :
Speakingtruth, how did I miss that post. That is exactly how I feel. What will I say to my friends? What about the ministries that I am in? These are some of the questions that comes to my mind.
The thought of staying home on Sundays does not appeal to me and I have never been one to visit different churches as long as I have a home church. This however is wakeup time for me, I will have to make a move, and sooner than later. I live in Loganville, if anyone knows of a church in this area please make a suggestion.
speakingtruth reply on June 26th, 2008 at 5:08 pm :
Get ready for excommunication roscoe1 - especially if they’re “drinking the Kool-Aid”. You have to be honest - tell them that you’re leaving because what you see and hear is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the Word of God (and be prepared to refute them with scripture and verse). They can discount what you say, but they’de be hard pressed to second guess what God says Himself.
Also, you have to process your emotions and leave them out of the way - this is a staight up and down, black and white move…there is no gray area when it comes to God’s Word and His directives. I didn’t mind staying at home at first because I was physically tired from all of the “ministry work” I did. Also, I had grown use to the “entertainment” and would surely miss that - but I also grew more and more thirsty for the Word, and that thirst helped me get used to reading my bible, sharing in worship songs with my family, expounding on scripture with them, etc.
I also was taught not to “church hop” by my former pimps, but I discovered that they just didn’t want me to stumble upon the truth for myself. IC really helped me understand that church membership (i.e “officially joining” a church) was secondary in importance when compared to the adhering to God’s truth. It may seem “different” at first (ostly because your flesh will want to compare what you see at one church to what you’ve seen/experienced at another, and so on), but I HIGHLY recommend that you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to (and away from) churches here in the metro-area. If you want to know “what to be on the look-out for”, then click this link to learn some of the marks of a healthy church (I’m not endorsing any churches listed there, just the things to look for in a healthy church).
All in all, this is a process - and it requires dedication. I was telling another friend who escaped my former plantation that it was easier to just drink the pimps Kool-Aid than to learn and study for myself…and that’s exactely why so many people stay under the pimps control. It’s just too hard to learn of and seek God for yourself.
Such a sad commentary…
rascoe1 reply on June 26th, 2008 at 5:35 pm :
Thanks for your encouraging words, my brother. I will be keeping you informed.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:55 am
In Mark 7:11, Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not helping to support their parents. They wre taking what would have supported their parents and claiming it to be “Corban,” a gift to God.
I have a question for the “YOU MUST TITHE” churches. My wife and I are helping her mother pay for her house, which she would lose if we didn’t help. What we give her is better then 10% of our income. Would they have us continue to support her mother, as Jesus commanded, or take that 10% and give it to the church and let mum-in-law go homeless?
speakingtruth reply on June 26th, 2008 at 10:24 am :
You already know the answer to that fourpointer. The pimp would have you to believe that giving your money to him would inadvertantly help your mother in law (and if it doesn’t, then your faith was too weak to begin with).
Oh, and don’t try to go to your church for benevolence assistance in helping your mother in law if you did choose to surrender your “tithe” at the point of a gun.
It’s a sick (yet trusted) revenue scam
IndependentConservative reply on June 26th, 2008 at 10:43 am :
Well fourpointer, the ones who are not so “hard core” into the bad teaching of the 10% scam would tell you to help your mother in law.
The more “hard core” promoters of the erred teaching of “church tithing” would tell you to take your mother in law into your own house and pay them (uh Gawd) 10% (of gross income). Also 10% of the gross proceeds of the sale of your mother in law’s house would be expected. Given she’d be moving in with you and would need to sell the house before it went into foreclosure. You would also be expected to pay a generous offering on top of the 10%.
I once saw Eddie Long’s Caribbean partner in pimping Neil Ellis speaking at Club New Birth. Pimp Ellis said, that paying the 10% opens the window of Heaven, but you really don’t get the “pour” until you pay an offering on top of that, since you know they want the “tithe and offerings”. It’s like a sad comedy when I think about it now, but I used to really fall for that lie. Praise the Lord for delivering me from such. Basically they say if you want to have big money pouring on you, pay them 10%+!
speakingtruth reply on June 26th, 2008 at 1:31 pm :
That’s priceless
If you remember IC, Ellis was the one who “convinced” Eddie Long to go on “love offering” vs. a traditional salary (back in 1997). Of course, Eddie “hesitated” but he “stepped out on faith and is still living on it today (remember when he used to say “Don’t look around counting heads to see if your contributions aren’t needed - make sure you contribute too”).
I wonder if Eddie (or any other pimp collecting tithes and love offerings today) would have that same faith if there were only 100 members at his club?
Ahh…the bad old days…:roll:
IndependentConservative reply on June 26th, 2008 at 2:11 pm :
Oh yea, I remember. They learned that trick and many others from what is being taught through people with links to Prosperity Gospel Pimp University!
Basically, they figured out, that when the crowd is large, they make MORE going off salary and onto “love offerings” than they would staying on salary and having to haggle and deal with hassles when they want a salary increase. Plus they get to guilt people into giving money to them by claiming they take no salary.
All the while, BELL Ministries kept rolling. So Eddie could make money still off speaking fees going on tour and selling his books and other materials.
And you know if anybody knows how to skim off the top of a charity, it’s Eddie Long!
Christocentric reply on June 26th, 2008 at 2:46 pm :
Well, you confirmed my suspicions about a pastor going to “love offerings” instead of salary. At one of the largest baptist churches here in San Diego, the pastor did just that. I remember thinking to myself, with the size of the church then he probably figured he get more from the offerings!
I used to go to this church faithfully, but was bugged out of my mind for their constant begging for money. It got so bad that on some Sundays they would pass that plate for four different collections!!!
All the pimping and begging just convinced me to leave that church. The church I’m going to now seems quite mild compared to that one. Only one collection plate and no begging from the pulpit to make people give more!
rascoe1 reply on June 26th, 2008 at 3:28 pm :
At my church the plate goes around once, unless there is a visiting minister, then it goes around twice. The first, for all the tithes and the second, for all the offerings, which is then given to the visiting minister. They know how to work it.