Thank God through Jesus Christ, that He willed some fellow saints to explain things in scripture many have either avoided or simply accepted what others told them without properly aligning it with scripture.
Talk of a pre-tribulation rapture sounds convenient, but is not biblical and disrespects the truth of what brothers and sisters before us have suffered. The modern church is no better than those before us who endured persecution and the modern church will have to face our coming persecution without being given over to fables and myths. Those erred teachings may cause some to embrace the beast and his mark, assuming they would be “raptured” before the beast is revealed. The elect of God will not be deceived, Matthew 24:24 [click to expand link].
The video mentioned in the one above is below:
I’ve got no issue with discussion of pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture here. But I don’t entertain any comments from Preterists. People who feel a rapture or partial rapture already occurred. I won’t spend time debating something I’ve debated already in other places and full Preterist teaching is full heresy.
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May 6th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
A friend of mine came to me and he was really confused about the pre/post tribulation/rapture issue.
I asked him if it was before the tribulation, would he be ready.
He said yes.
I asked him if it was after the tribulation, would he be ready.
He said yes.
I told him to be ready and stay ready. Time is really irrelevant according to the scripture.
Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
My belief is that
1. The church is the bride of Christ.
2. Why would Christ allow his bride to be brutalized in such a way before the marriage supper of the Lamb?
3. The bride is supposed to be presented white, spotless, without blemish to the Father.
Thus, I expect the church –the bride– to be caught up before the man of sin is revealed.
I do not believe that the church will escape persecution before being caught away, but there is no strong evidence that the persecution will be the “great tribulation”.
Having said that, if Im wrong the greater goal is to be ready when he comes. Whenever that might be.
IndependentConservative reply on May 7th, 2008 at 9:52 am :
I certainly agree with always being ready and Mark 13:32-37 notes we should always be on alert, “in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.”
However though, I must maintain scripture only mentions post-tribulation given what is there.
To answer this question:
Scripture says it will be brutal.
Matthew 24:4-14 (New American Standard Bible)
Verse 13 Christ mentions only those who endure till the END will be saved and verse 14 mentions the gospel reaching the whole world and then the END coming. It does not say catching of the church and then the Antichrist and then the end, it says everything takes place before the END.
Spots and blemishes are not from persecution, but from being in sin. Christ will ensure the church does not totally fall into the temptation of sin and rebellion against God. His shed blood covers us, to be presented white, clean, His blood has covered our spots and blemishes of sin. The Lord keeps all of His sheep. Please see John 17:6-15. Notice we are kept by Him and He asked the Father to ensure we are kept, which He only said allowed for our sakes, so we would know God in persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in agreement, as always. Notice how in verse 15 Christ says “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.” We are only kept from falling into total evil, but we are in this world although not of it and will remain till the end of it.
If the Lord returns suddenly right now, it only means the END came sooner than we realized. But when He returns, that is the END.
God told us the church would be here and would see the man of sin revealed. Please see all of 2 Thessalonians 2. It is never spoken of the Lord coming before the END. Once He comes that is the END and we would be at Revelation 19, which is well after the beasts have all been revealed. The beasts, the wrath and all.
There is no such thing in scripture of the Lord returning before the END. So if He came right now, we would be thanking God through Jesus that we were kept from embracing the mark of the beast and we would be asking “which of the many offensive things that we rejected was the mark of the beast, or was it just all of them?”
The Lord may come suddenly, but when He comes it is fully noted that it will be visible to ALL (Matthew 24:27) and it will be the END.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:01 am
IC, I watched the 2nd video and honestly I dont agree with the scriptural support cited for the pretribulation position. Whoever he was saying used that, its sloppy.
I will also say the speaker did not make an airtight case for his position either.
I think Im understanding you to say that pretribulation beliefs are unbiblical on the grounds someone may not be ready?
Could you explain that again?
IndependentConservative reply on May 7th, 2008 at 10:26 am :
Please bring any and all pre-tribulation claims from scripture here and I’ll show you why it’s not true.
Hopefully you’ve already reviewed these other posts, because this latest post is simply in addition to those:
Let’s Not Dwell on What You Were Told About a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Let’s See What the Bible Says.
In Depth Teaching on Post Tribulation Rapture and Dispelling the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Myth.
And there’s already been plenty of discussion there in those posts. Probably covering some items you might feel affirm pre-tribulation rapture.
If I believe I’m going to be “raptured” before the beasts appear and the mark, why would I refuse a chip in my hand or head?
DL Foster reply on May 7th, 2008 at 1:49 pm :
IC are you concerned that posttrib teaching removes the element of imminency from the picture. Imminency is a core component of readiness (ref the 5 wise/5 foolish virgin parable). If an individual is sure that at a given spot in time, Christ will come, how can that be congruent with Christ’s statement that “no man knows the day nor the hour?”
Further, if one is sure that he will return only after certain events of the tribulation wouldnt that provide people with an excuse to simply wait for the “signs” and then give their lives to Christ, because they know he won’t return until certain events are accomplished?
The imminency of his return compels us to be ready…expecting…awake and aware…now as opposed to later. Again, if that element is removed through teaching a precalculated time frame, the whole point of his readiness warning is made null and void.
Those are my questions and thoughts.
IndependentConservative reply on May 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm :
My only concern is the truth be told.
I see scripture is totally speaking of our Lord returning at the END and just the same I’m staying prepared like He’ll come before I hit “submit comment” for you to see this statement.
I’ve got no reason to try and instill fear, I fear God and His children will if they really love Him.
My coming to understand the pre-trib view is non-existent in scripture did not cause me to lower my alert level at all. However, it does cause me to ENSURE I’m on top of various end-time events and news. Things I took lightly when I figured “so what, I’ll fly away before that happens”. I could have taken a chip in my hand for personal convenience and figured it can’t be “the mark of the beast” because I’m still here… Me coming to know the truth only helps me avoid an unpardonable sin.
Seeing all we have to endure, I’m more into prayer and scriptures than ever before.
stan reply on May 7th, 2008 at 6:16 pm :
What the Lord commands is that we stay alert. To me, it means watch what is going on so that you can recognize all the signs of His coming and act accordingly. Listen to what Irenaeus says about Antichrist and 666: And there is therefore in this beast (Antichrist), when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things’ sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].
stan reply on May 7th, 2008 at 6:20 pm :
Reference for the above quote from Irenaeus’ work “Against Heresies” is Book 5, chapter 29, part 2: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm
May 7th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Very interesting. Could anyone tell me where in the bible “speak the things that are not as though they were” is found. I have quoted it over and over again, but cannot remember ever reading it for myself. I have heard it quoted a lot by prosperity preachers and started doing so myself. Just like accepting the tribulation rapture view. My friend used the above quote to justify “the Secret”. I have been trying since to find the scripture and read it in full context(for myself, the firt time), but I have not been successful. I went through my concordance, I dont know if I over looked it. I know there is no justification for “The Secret”, I just want to get a full understanding of the scripture if it exist. I asked a friend who is a bible teacher, but she could not remember where it is taken from.
DL Foster reply on May 7th, 2008 at 1:59 pm :
rascoe, the pinpointed verse is Romans 4:17. Read all for it is generally grossly missapplied.
IndependentConservative reply on May 7th, 2008 at 2:15 pm :
Oh yea, rascoe1 read that whole chapter. Men are literally trying to ACT AS GOD. (Which is what “The Secret” mess is all about.) It’s a terrible thing the “name it, claim it” is doing.
Anyone wondering how the pulpit pimps mishandle that and many other scriptures, I caught Paul Morton abusing many in just under 10 minute flat and have analysis and video at Paul Morton is a Kingpin in the Pulpit Pimp Racket!
May 7th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Thank you DL Foster. I did read it before, it is marked in my bible. Obviously I saw it with totally different eyes. I suppose I understood it as I was programmed to understand it. IC, I saw the Morton video, the funny thing is, there was a time when I would have been caught up with the frenzy that was being displayed. Like the people in the congregation,I was just as gullible until I realised that it did not work for me. Then my eyes began to open. This blog and other roll over blogs helped. God Bless You all
May 7th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
IC, I will take your advise and re-read the book of Hebrews, with new eyes
May 7th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
rascoe1 - Thank the Lord we all learned better. Not that we deserved it, but God saw fit to let us all see the truth.
I used to think Morton was so great a preacher too. Once I started reading the Bible more in light of what they say (Morton, Long and other Full Gospel Baptist current and former members), suddenly their “sermons” didn’t sound so godly anymore.