Comments on: Jesus Camp and Bad Doctrine http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/04/29/jesus-camp-and-bad-doctrine/ The Independent Conservative saying what needs to be said! Wed, 30 Mar 2011 21:35:55 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: truthintheselastdays http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/04/29/jesus-camp-and-bad-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-9817 truthintheselastdays Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:23:22 +0000 http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=1842#comment-9817 IC, I'm 17. I can remember like I'm watching a DVD, the utter nonsense that goes on in youth "camps" like that. It stills make me quite upset when I see stuff like that. I've watched Jesus Camp twice...and near threw my TV out the window afterwards. My heart pains for the young kids trapped in it, deceived by the very peopel they should be able to trust. May God deliver them before they waste their lives in this nonsense. IC, I’m 17. I can remember like I’m watching a DVD, the utter nonsense that goes on in youth “camps” like that. It stills make me quite upset when I see stuff like that. I’ve watched Jesus Camp twice…and near threw my TV out the window afterwards. My heart pains for the young kids trapped in it, deceived by the very peopel they should be able to trust. May God deliver them before they waste their lives in this nonsense.

]]> By: stan http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/04/29/jesus-camp-and-bad-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-9816 stan Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:40:17 +0000 http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=1842#comment-9816 There is a powerful element in the church that is mystical and believes in these modern apostles/prophets, Toronto, etc. B. Fischer's materials are made available through Rick Joyner's ministry. That should give even more of a warning. Alas, even the pastor tends toward the mystical and thinks Dutch Sheets is the best thing since sliced bread. I don't see them taking me seriously anyway, since I left them as a result of coming against this strong mystical, gnostic trend at the church. I'm the bad guy (who cares? I don't. Jesus says to rejoice when you're treated badly for His sake.). However, my brother, who still attends, is on high alert about this. But, as long as he is there, he won't be able to think very clearly or effect any change. He will become increasingly frustrated. I feel bad for the church being caught up in this error. I feel bad the most for the kids being exposed innocently to this error. God grant them repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth. Stan There is a powerful element in the church that is mystical and believes in these modern apostles/prophets, Toronto, etc. B. Fischer’s materials are made available through Rick Joyner’s ministry. That should give even more of a warning. Alas, even the pastor tends toward the mystical and thinks Dutch Sheets is the best thing since sliced bread. I don’t see them taking me seriously anyway, since I left them as a result of coming against this strong mystical, gnostic trend at the church. I’m the bad guy (who cares? I don’t. Jesus says to rejoice when you’re treated badly for His sake.).

However, my brother, who still attends, is on high alert about this. But, as long as he is there, he won’t be able to think very clearly or effect any change. He will become increasingly frustrated.

I feel bad for the church being caught up in this error. I feel bad the most for the kids being exposed innocently to this error.

God grant them repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth.

Stan

]]> By: IndependentConservative http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/04/29/jesus-camp-and-bad-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-9814 IndependentConservative Wed, 30 Apr 2008 01:08:34 +0000 http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=1842#comment-9814 Stan, they should have taken firm heed of your warning. Stan, they should have taken firm heed of your warning.

]]> By: stan http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/04/29/jesus-camp-and-bad-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-9813 stan Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:27:19 +0000 http://www.independentconservative.com/?p=1842#comment-9813 Hi IC. I had watched this video back in late December when it was on A&E at the suggestion of my sister-in-law. Her church (my old one) is purchasing Fischer's materials for the junior church curriculum (and have it by now). The kids under her ministry are being trained to be alarmingly militant. Fischer makes a direct connection in their young minds about what it means to be a sold-out Christian to the self-destructive and homicidal training of Islamic children. How can those kids in her camp understand the differences between the methods in each faith? They are also being told that they are a "special generation" that God is raising up in these last days - that they can change the world. Lou Engle, of the Call, was there to promote that ego-inflating idea. That sort of thing cannot help but to create an elitist pride within them that will rob them of a necessary humility before a Holy God. After all, if they are special, then they don't need the restraints of God-given authority in <i>their</i> lives. The appearance of Ted Haggard denouncing homosexuality in a sarcastic tone didn't help their cause either. The kids spoke to and prayed at a cardboard likeness of the president and did "spiritual warfare" over him. She has them praying over seats that people will sit in and speaks to the devil not to interfere with the physical aspects of the meeting that will take place soon. What sort of apostolic doctrine is this? You get the impression that the apostles' teaching is not important: The imagined results are. Fischer exhorts them to "Fix the world." Yet, Peter says to save yourselves from this perverse generation, not to reform it. Christians cannot change the world or nations, or else our Lord would not have told us we would be hated, hunted and killed by them. The best we can hope for is that individuals in every nation will respond to the Gospel, by the grace of God. Whether a revival takes place such as what happened in Ephesus is not something you can plan or decree. It can happen, but it must happen "according to the pattern" faithfully brought to us by the apostles of the Lord. The kids pray for and decree revival in the land, but what kind are they being led to expect? They already do not know what is to be expected from a genuine one, nor what the core message of the gospel is and what it is limited to. Becky is misguided - a blind leader of the blind. And, as Luke 6:39-40 tells us, her disciples will become like her in full - misguided "Christian" militants who believe the Spirit is directing their militancy and promoting their mysticism. Your heart really goes out to those kids, though. They're sweet, zealous, sincere and misled. I am pasting my email I sent to my sister-in-law immediately after the show with my comments and observations. (some editing for posting here, though.) Stan <i>The show just got over. Some immediate thoughts: The kids certainly seem sincere. Unfortunately, they are also very naive, ignorant and unable to differentiate between apostolic doctrine and Kingdom Now theology (Dominionism). Therefore, they think both are equal and God-honoring. In a pantomime, they smashed ceramic cups representing the US government (or, by extension, the evil spirits that are behind it). Consider Romans 13:2b "For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." And Romans 13:4a "For he (the government) is God's minister to you for good." They believe they "broke" Satan's bonds over America. First, Satan rules kingdoms right now at God's direction and permission. God set them up to judge sinful mankind through these evil spirits. There is no way to "call them down" even if sincere kids do it. They may as well call down God from His throne. This belief and practice is going to lead to serious disappointment later in life as Satan's activities grow even more extreme, as prophesied in Scripture; and the attempts to overthrow him then will prove just as futile. They will end up charging God with wrongdoing, just like Job didn't. Did you notice the bodily effects on the kids: Shaking, and falling, weeping and swaying side to side? These are all symptoms of being placed into hyper-suggestibility and altered states of consciousness. This is how people accept even bizarre manifestations without question. These states are designed to lower the necessary work of the mind to filter out error. Jesus, Paul and Peter all say "Stay alert!" How can kids who are ignorant of doctrine able to do that? Charismatic adults hardly do that. Becky Fischer is certainly promoting the dulling of this God-given faculty called a renewed, discerning mind. The kids' private use of hard rock Christian music shows that they need the physical excitement that those songs bring to induce a spiritual state. Nothing could be more untrue. God does not minister to us through elevated heart rates brought on by such music. He bears witness with our spirits with the truth. The truth can bring joy due to its freeing effects, but rock music brings fleshly enjoyment which has nothing to do with the ministration of the joy of the Lord. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth, not the Spirit of Excitement. We are to walk in truth by having a renewed mind without making provision for the lusts of the flesh. They equate these extreme, bodily experiences with God's Spirit. This can lead later to depression and a need to duplicate these experiences. It is like a drug of choice. But, like drugs, they make people feel good for a while but later let them down, so it must be experienced over and over. I pray that God will have mercy on these kids. However, sooner or later, they will need to purge out this leaven. Do you think they will be able to? It will be hard, so why set them up this way at such a tender age? The little girl, Rachel, characterized a dead church as one which "sings a couple of songs and listens to a sermon" and a live church as one that is not shy to shout out their praise to God. Well, she has no way to understand that whatever is in that sermon is the blessing or the curse, for if the "conservative church-goer who sings a couple of songs" hears rightly divided apostolic truth and is a doer of that word, then he is very much alive whereas the one who shouts out the Lord's praises but receives little truth is in fact the dead one. So, this misleading of children is serious. Which leads to the other problem: Becky Fischer herself. She has mingled her passion for the lost with an unbalanced understanding of how the Spirit operates in the believer and the error of Kingdom Now theology. The little girl who "prophesied" to a stranger at a bowling alley said meaningless things to her that had nothing to do with the gospel of the Resurrected Man who died for her sins. She had no way to judge her own internal impressions first, so she ignorantly gave the divine stamp to her own inflated emotional state. This is the result of Becky Fischer's direct influence. Becky said that these kids are "open" to the things of God. Since when does God need a personality disposition to give a prophecy to someone? Was Jonah "open" to prophesy to Nineveh? Amos complained that he was just a shepherd whom God called to speak to apostate Israel. Jeremiah said that he would not mention God anymore or His word, but was unable to contain the fire of His word that was in his heart. So, God does not use "mystics" more than hard-core realists such as Jonah. As a matter of fact, a mystic would be much less qualified to speak a bona-fide prophecy because of his propensity toward believing the fantastic and subjective impressions of his own mind. He is much more easily deceived into thinking he is hearing from God when he is not. Mystics tend to be unstable personalities and these kids are headed that way. Rachel prayed for Jesus to have her get a strike in bowling. What happens to her faith when such temporal things don't materialize? She must bury her confusion along with the ones that are surely coming to her due to this ministry's wacky doctrines and practice. It's gonna hurt her. Becky Fischer is rearing a generation of militant mystics, from what one can see in this video. It would be interesting to interview a handful of these kids in 10 years to see how their Christian walk is going. Overall, it was unsettling to watch this and sad to think these kids are being led into these things without any defense. I'd beware of Becky Fischer's brand of kid's ministry. </i> Hi IC. I had watched this video back in late December when it was on A&E at the suggestion of my sister-in-law. Her church (my old one) is purchasing Fischer’s materials for the junior church curriculum (and have it by now). The kids under her ministry are being trained to be alarmingly militant. Fischer makes a direct connection in their young minds about what it means to be a sold-out Christian to the self-destructive and homicidal training of Islamic children. How can those kids in her camp understand the differences between the methods in each faith? They are also being told that they are a “special generation” that God is raising up in these last days – that they can change the world. Lou Engle, of the Call, was there to promote that ego-inflating idea. That sort of thing cannot help but to create an elitist pride within them that will rob them of a necessary humility before a Holy God. After all, if they are special, then they don’t need the restraints of God-given authority in their lives. The appearance of Ted Haggard denouncing homosexuality in a sarcastic tone didn’t help their cause either.

The kids spoke to and prayed at a cardboard likeness of the president and did “spiritual warfare” over him. She has them praying over seats that people will sit in and speaks to the devil not to interfere with the physical aspects of the meeting that will take place soon. What sort of apostolic doctrine is this? You get the impression that the apostles’ teaching is not important: The imagined results are.

Fischer exhorts them to “Fix the world.” Yet, Peter says to save yourselves from this perverse generation, not to reform it. Christians cannot change the world or nations, or else our Lord would not have told us we would be hated, hunted and killed by them. The best we can hope for is that individuals in every nation will respond to the Gospel, by the grace of God. Whether a revival takes place such as what happened in Ephesus is not something you can plan or decree. It can happen, but it must happen “according to the pattern” faithfully brought to us by the apostles of the Lord. The kids pray for and decree revival in the land, but what kind are they being led to expect? They already do not know what is to be expected from a genuine one, nor what the core message of the gospel is and what it is limited to. Becky is misguided – a blind leader of the blind. And, as Luke 6:39-40 tells us, her disciples will become like her in full – misguided “Christian” militants who believe the Spirit is directing their militancy and promoting their mysticism.

Your heart really goes out to those kids, though. They’re sweet, zealous, sincere and misled.

I am pasting my email I sent to my sister-in-law immediately after the show with my comments and observations. (some editing for posting here, though.)

Stan

The show just got over. Some immediate thoughts: The kids certainly seem sincere. Unfortunately, they are also very naive, ignorant and unable to differentiate between apostolic doctrine and Kingdom Now theology (Dominionism). Therefore, they think both are equal and God-honoring. In a pantomime, they smashed ceramic cups representing the US government (or, by extension, the evil spirits that are behind it). Consider Romans 13:2b “For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.” And Romans 13:4a “For he (the government) is God’s minister to you for good.” They believe they “broke” Satan’s bonds over America. First, Satan rules kingdoms right now at God’s direction and permission. God set them up to judge sinful mankind through these evil spirits. There is no way to “call them down” even if sincere kids do it. They may as well call down God from His throne. This belief and practice is going to lead to serious disappointment later in life as Satan’s activities grow even more extreme, as prophesied in Scripture; and the attempts to overthrow him then will prove just as futile. They will end up charging God with wrongdoing, just like Job didn’t.

Did you notice the bodily effects on the kids: Shaking, and falling, weeping and swaying side to side? These are all symptoms of being placed into hyper-suggestibility and altered states of consciousness. This is how people accept even bizarre manifestations without question. These states are designed to lower the necessary work of the mind to filter out error. Jesus, Paul and Peter all say “Stay alert!” How can kids who are ignorant of doctrine able to do that? Charismatic adults hardly do that. Becky Fischer is certainly promoting the dulling of this God-given faculty called a renewed, discerning mind.

The kids’ private use of hard rock Christian music shows that they need the physical excitement that those songs bring to induce a spiritual state. Nothing could be more untrue. God does not minister to us through elevated heart rates brought on by such music. He bears witness with our spirits with the truth. The truth can bring joy due to its freeing effects, but rock music brings fleshly enjoyment which has nothing to do with the ministration of the joy of the Lord. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth, not the Spirit of Excitement. We are to walk in truth by having a renewed mind without making provision for the lusts of the flesh.

They equate these extreme, bodily experiences with God’s Spirit. This can lead later to depression and a need to duplicate these experiences. It is like a drug of choice. But, like drugs, they make people feel good for a while but later let them down, so it must be experienced over and over. I pray that God will have mercy on these kids. However, sooner or later, they will need to purge out this leaven. Do you think they will be able to? It will be hard, so why set them up this way at such a tender age?

The little girl, Rachel, characterized a dead church as one which “sings a couple of songs and listens to a sermon” and a live church as one that is not shy to shout out their praise to God. Well, she has no way to understand that whatever is in that sermon is the blessing or the curse, for if the “conservative church-goer who sings a couple of songs” hears rightly divided apostolic truth and is a doer of that word, then he is very much alive whereas the one who shouts out the Lord’s praises but receives little truth is in fact the dead one. So, this misleading of children is serious.

Which leads to the other problem: Becky Fischer herself. She has mingled her passion for the lost with an unbalanced understanding of how the Spirit operates in the believer and the error of Kingdom Now theology. The little girl who “prophesied” to a stranger at a bowling alley said meaningless things to her that had nothing to do with the gospel of the Resurrected Man who died for her sins. She had no way to judge her own internal impressions first, so she ignorantly gave the divine stamp to her own inflated emotional state. This is the result of Becky Fischer’s direct influence.

Becky said that these kids are “open” to the things of God. Since when does God need a personality disposition to give a prophecy to someone? Was Jonah “open” to prophesy to Nineveh? Amos complained that he was just a shepherd whom God called to speak to apostate Israel. Jeremiah said that he would not mention God anymore or His word, but was unable to contain the fire of His word that was in his heart. So, God does not use “mystics” more than hard-core realists such as Jonah. As a matter of fact, a mystic would be much less qualified to speak a bona-fide prophecy because of his propensity toward believing the fantastic and subjective impressions of his own mind. He is much more easily deceived into thinking he is hearing from God when he is not. Mystics tend to be unstable personalities and these kids are headed that way. Rachel prayed for Jesus to have her get a strike in bowling. What happens to her faith when such temporal things don’t materialize? She must bury her confusion along with the ones that are surely coming to her due to this ministry’s wacky doctrines and practice. It’s gonna hurt her. Becky Fischer is rearing a generation of militant mystics, from what one can see in this video.

It would be interesting to interview a handful of these kids in 10 years to see how their Christian walk is going.

Overall, it was unsettling to watch this and sad to think these kids are being led into these things without any defense. I’d beware of Becky Fischer’s brand of kid’s ministry.

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