This video series details why the only rapture/resurrection/return of Christ in scripture that is noted is post tribulation.
If you had a loved one, who was assuming they had a reward coming next week and you knew it was not coming till later, would you allow that loved one to remain deceived? I doubt it. So please take this in love if you are of the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint. We all have a coming reward in Christ, but we need to ensure we understand what scripture teaches will come before the Lord’s return.
I humbly request you watch all 5 videos in full before making comment and hope you can respect my request as fellow saints in Christ.
I humbly request you watch all 5 videos in full before making comment and hope you can respect my request as fellow saints in Christ.
I’ve got no issue with discussion of pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture here. But I don’t entertain any comments from Preterists. People who feel a rapture or partial rapture already occurred. I won’t spend time debating something I’ve debated already in other places and full Preterist teaching is full heresy.
Related post: Let?s Not Dwell on What You Were Told About a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Let?s See What the Bible Says.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Independent Conservative - Copyright 2008 - Copyright Notice
[powered by WordPress.]
44 queries. 0.613 seconds
April 26th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Wow, this is alot for me to digest. It explains somethings I’ve always pondered on regarding “2″ comings of Jesus, one “secret” and the other “openly for all to see”, however, I still have some questions:
Exactly who are the 144k supposed to be and how do they play into all of this?
The 2 witnesses that are raised up, when is that supposed to take place and what is the true significance of these 2 witnesses relating to pre or post trib?
Upon Jesus return when the saints that have died are caught up to meet him, are the sinners that have died raised up as well and if not, when?
If it’s the wicked ones that are going to be taken away or destroyed, when will this happen, after the 7 years of tribulation when the saints are caught up and God pours out His judgment on the earth?
Is the 7 year tribulation period “literally” 7 years and do you think, from a scriptural standpoint that we’ve already entered into tribulation?
I know it’s a lot, but as you know, pre-trib has been ingrained in me and I am earnestly desiring the truth and I know the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the truth as I seek it.
Bless you!
IndependentConservative reply on April 27th, 2008 at 3:19 am :
Hi godlysoldier,
As with all end times discussion, the answers I give you to these things are often greatly debated. But here’s what I’m seeing.
Revelation 7 speaks of groups that come through the tribulation. The 144,000 are Jews, as mentioned there they are from every tribe of the sons of Israel and the detailed bloodlines are given. They are the ones who believe on Christ. The 144,000 figure is debated as to whether it is a symbolic or literal figure. (Probably symbolic of a high number, although less than the number of Gentiles mentioned later in the chapter.) Either way, it’s the Jews who will embrace Christ.
Then later in that chapter it speaks of a great multitude which no one could count and it is explained they came out of great tribulation, these are Gentile believers (given they are not of the 144,000 who are Jews). So it’s a view of those who are saved and endured through great tribulation.
Revelation 11 speaks of 2 witnesses, two great prophets. Before they are raised up, they are killed by the beast from the abyss. The beast does not kill them till their testimony is finished. They come and go before the final trumpet, before the end. It is noted their ministry goes 1260 days and the timing of their bodies and eventual resurrection by God. When this occurs is sometime just before the end, because they precede the 7th (final) trumpet.
Please see this prior comment from a related thread.
Regarding the 7 year figure. I’ll just say it seems to be a figure that became popular once pre-trib teachers John Darby and Cyrus I. Scofield asserted it.
Please see this and this.
Anointed reply on April 27th, 2008 at 12:54 pm :
Thus saith the Lord, there will be a famine in the land. Both spirtual and phyiscal, many will try to seek out the word. The will barely be anywhere a true christian will be able to find the word. Many will give in to the puffed up message, begining sowing into their flesh. Gal 6
Be not decived God is not mocked.
There will be a lack of food. Please heed the warning. God bless, Do not worrying about responding I will not post again. God bless.
SteelGator reply on April 27th, 2008 at 9:10 pm :
What are you trying to say Annointed? Why are you running away before IC responds?
IndependentConservative reply on April 27th, 2008 at 9:36 pm :
SG, I had no intention of responding even if they remained.
But if you have a response you are welcome to post it and perhaps they will return if they desire to reply.
SteelGator reply on April 28th, 2008 at 12:39 pm :
IC: I don’t even know what this Annointed person is trying to say. They are obviously trying to get under your skin, though. Can you please clarify their argument so I can get my mind around it?
IndependentConservative reply on April 28th, 2008 at 1:02 pm :
SG, See Kyle’s comment.
godlysoldier reply on April 28th, 2008 at 2:47 pm :
Hey IC, thanks for your response and the info you’ve given…very informative…I’m starting to see the importance of reading about church history as it pertains to how our views and understanding of certain biblical matters have formulated in our minds today.
My earnest and sincere prayer everyday to God is “Lord, I just want truth” Thank God we have the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide us into ALL truth as we earnestly seek it and contend for the faith.
I believe the “pre-trib” theory is slowly being eroded away…for me anyways…pray for me as I continue to study to show myself approved unto God…
April 26th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Everything was excellent except the last segment #5. From the state of the situation today we must all recognoze that the Pope is not “the” AntiChrist. However, we must recognize the MAJOR influence the Catholic Church will have during the end times. This is very important to point out so that weak believers will not be looking to Rome for the AntiChrist.
Kyle
IndependentConservative reply on April 26th, 2008 at 10:15 pm :
I agree, but I also cannot say with 100% certainty that no pope won’t be the Antichrist. Benedict certainly is an antichrist (small “a”) and some feel he is the Antichrist.
I have not found Benedict to be the Antichrist yet, but I do feel it’s possible future events could occur that might result in somebody we know possibly including Benedict in the future turning out the be the Antichrist.
I don’t see it at the moment, but won’t say it’s impossible either. We do know, that whoever the Antichrist turns out to be will be someone Rome won’t be standing against. And some feel the Antichrist is a system more than a man, again another position I don’t see personally but won’t claim is an impossibility.
What I find totally unprovable in scripture are the claims of pre-tribulation rapture. And as was noted, noting in scripture indicates our experience will be different from saints before us who faced major persecution. Scripture is consistent and claims of pre-tribulation rapture do not jive with scripture at all.
April 26th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
IC,
I agree that the Pre-trib rapture is nothing more than a marketing ploy that Oh, guess what, Is spouted off by the Pulpit Pimps – SHOCKING!
Today I had made some comments to a couple guys that I work with who were trying to witness to another co-worker. The problem is that they are WoF/Prosperity Gospel/Armenian adherents. Needless to say they really got nowhere with this individual. It was sad. I confronted both of them with no luck.
To the unbeliever we must preach the truth and present the Gospel. However, let us just say that I was a little stern with the two believers and their presentation of “their” Gospel. As pointed out in the vid these people are the care free ones that take their salvation for granted. It is no shock that there is a correlation between the Prosperity Gospel and the PreTrib rapture. Don’t get me wrong I am not judging these two individuals salvation but I had to put a stop to their false doctrine they were preaching.
I will be sitting down with the person they were witnessing to very soon however and present him the true Gospel message.
Kyle
IndependentConservative reply on April 27th, 2008 at 12:38 am :
Lord willing they will embrace the truth. Hold on to 2 Timothy 2:24-26 brother.
April 27th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Outstanding thread!! I too disagree with the Pastor’s idea about Pope Benedict being the Antichrist, but only God knows for sure. God will reveal the man of lawlessness in due time.
April 28th, 2008 at 4:47 am
Interesting discussion, IC. I hold to a pre-wrath position myself, but I find points of truth in the post-tribulational understanding of the Rapture
April 28th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
TruthInTheLastDays,
You said Pre-Wrath. Even Pre-Wrath do not believe in the Pre-Trib. Where do you fall on your Pre-Wrath point. In other words at what point during th 7 year trib do you think the rapture will occur?
Kyle
IndependentConservative reply on April 28th, 2008 at 12:27 pm :
Kyle, what makes you so sure the events noted in Revelation will be for exactly 7 years?
Especially considering the fact that the “7 year tribulation” concept initiated with pre-tribulation rapture teachers John Darby and Cyrus I. Scofield.
Who was claiming Daniel 9 had another 7 years of coming fulfillment before Scofield?
I’m just going to drop something here you (and many others) might find to be crazy in a link below. Although the site mentioned at the end of the video is no longer up, I’ve got some views on the matter that might answer questions your viewing this might create.
Rapture Revelation
(This is something I’m not even trying to get into with folks not willing to watch all the videos above.)
SteelGator reply on April 28th, 2008 at 3:23 pm :
IC: I watched the video and now I am even more confused than ever. I always understood the tribulation (even from a post trib eschatology) to be 7 years. Now, looking at Daniel 25-26 (KJV) it looks as the first Prince is capitalized and the second prince is not. This must be referring to two different princes, right? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:25-26;&version=9;
Also, the footnotes refer me back to Isaiah 55:4 in regard to the first Prince….. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2055:4;&version=9;
I am interpreting the first Prince to be Christ and the second prince to be a world leader maybe the Anti-Christ. However, what makes anyone think that this passage in Daniel is referring to the former prince of Syria. Even though Pre-Trib is not Biblical, could the second prince of Daniel be referring to a future leader? What are your thoughts?
IndependentConservative reply on April 28th, 2008 at 4:31 pm :
SG, we’re going into an area where many don’t often ask questions, but I was surprised when I started questioning it what I found and of course many won’t agree with me.
Yea I was pretty confused for a bit too
.
You don’t know how long I’ve been doing study on this before even posting that link as a comment
.
Right, but only one Prince is ever actually noted by title to ever fit the pronoun “he”, that being Jesus Christ. That is how the sacrifice ceased. His sacrifice was the end of such in the eyes of God. The only other mention of “prince” is regarding “people of the prince”, a group. That does not fit the use of the term “he” in verse 27.
It is my humble view given some lenghty study and prayer, that the whole of Daniel 9:24-27 has already been fulfilled and applied to Israel’s past and it related directly to Matthew 24:15-22. I feel in Matthew 24, that ONLY verses 2 and verses 15-22 were fulfilled well in the past. The roadmap in our time is Matthew 24:5-14 and Matthew 24:23-51. Everything I see relating to Daniel 9:24-27 and Matthew 24:15-22 already occurred and the timing for years fits it having already occurred.
(This is all stuff I was going to make into a post one day, but was still looking for the best explanations I could find to convey it.)
Take a look at this video, it’s the best I’ve found so far to explain Daniel 9. Don’t worry about the music very much, look at the charts outlined. If you take 70 weeks, which is 70 times 7 days = 490. If that is years, everything plays out perfectly to have occurred in 490 years as explained. The “people of the prince” were under orders from a Roman ruler to destroy Jerusalem, Titus. Titus is the 2nd prince. Daniel 9 is relating to 70AD and was completed with Jesus being crucified and what He said would occur 70AD.
(Stick with me a second so I can finish before you jump to conclusions about what I’m saying.)
If you check old Bible commentaries outside of those influenced by the Darby/Scofield view, it was not uncommon to see Daniel 9 AND Matthew 24:15-22 as being viewed as already fulfilled. So what was the “abomination of desolation”? Some see it as the stoning of Stephen, saints had to RUN after that happened as Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15-22
Acts 11:19 (New American Standard Bible)
The stoning of Stephen fits the number of years and the fact saints faced major persecution and were scattered after that. It also fits that things were bad but the time of the persecution was “shortened”. Then after that the church grew.
Also with Matthew 24:15-22 is the destruction of 70AD. We know the saints had to run then as Jesus warned and Rome taking Jerusalem is viewed as the abomination of desolation by those who see it as being fulfilled in 70AD. Keep in mind, we’re just talking about verses 15-22, not everything else in that chapter.
So basically it’s fulfilled and possibly even double fulfilled. Depending on if you see the abomination of desolation as occurring in 70AD instead of Stephen being stoned. Stephen being stoned and the gospel pouring out the Gentiles after that fits the prophesy.
In Matthew 24 2 QUESTIONS are asked. They asked Jesus when the events of the destruction of temples would take place AND when He would return. Matthew 24:15-22 answers the destruction of temples, since it is related to Daniel 9. Either you can see it as being sealed to occur once Stephen was stoned or you can see it as all occurring in 70AD, but it happened either way you view it and it’s all related to the same set of prophesy.
So what you’re left with, is none of the Darby/Scofield assertions that temple sacrifices have to resume and talk of a fixed 7 years. Now what baffled me, when I felt the Darby/Scofield view was correct when there is talk about resuming sacrifices, is how they would speak as if Jews would have full control of Jerusalem again. That conflicts with Luke 21:24, that shows Jews will NEVER have full control of Jerusalem until ALL the Gentiles have come in, the times of the Gentiles needs to be fulfilled first. Now the Jews could one day have enough control or be permitted to perform sacrifices in the future, perhaps. But the view the Jews will get ALL of Jerusalem and restart sacrifices conflicts with them never having it till all the Gentiles have come in. But if you go with pre-trib it works since you just claim the Gentiles were all raptured and don’t worry about how there are claims of Gentiles still saved after the pre-trib view of rapture. But this is because you can’t make a solid and full case with the pre-trib viewpoint, you have to leave something out using the pre-trib view.
So we’re left with the fact BEASTS will come (or already are) and The Mark and so on, I’m not seeing solid scripture to claim whether or not temple sacrifices will be going, not seeing a 7 year deal with the Anti-christ although we know an Anti-christ will be. And the claim the 144,000 will do super evangelism prior to the return of Christ, I’m not seeing where the Bible notes that.
I think Matthew 24:15-22 could possibly occur for us, but it would mean an “abomination of desolation” that does not have to be old Jewish temple related.
And see the Daniel 9:25 portion of the timeline here.
I think we all agree that site may be incorrect in asserting the pope as “the” Anti-christ, but they’ve certainly got things much better in line with scripture than the Darby/Scofield view.
truthintheselastdays reply on April 29th, 2008 at 6:42 am :
Well Kyle,
Here is what I believe, drawing from the EXPLICIT Biblical evidence presented from all three positions. In relation to the pre-tribbers, I believe that we will not see the wrath of God [1 Thess 5:9]. In relation to the mid-tribbers, I believe it will happen sometimes AFTER the mid-point of the 7-year tribulaton, but NOT exactly on the mid-point. In relation to the post-trib position, I do believe that the Antichrist will persecute for 1260 days. Hope that helps…
IndependentConservative reply on April 29th, 2008 at 9:32 am :
1 Thessalonians 5:9 is also cited by pre-trib proponents. But it does not say saints won’t be here till the last day. It only notes we won’t face the same wrath of judgement as sinners.
1 Thessalonians 5 makes it pretty clear we all will be here till the “day of the Lord” and for sinners it will be wrath and judgement; for saints it will be the good promised hope for us to spend eternity with Him. The “day of the Lord” is the last day, the end. God has Paul also note that in 1 Corinthians 1:4-8. And Jesus mentioned His day will come as clearly as lightening in Luke 17:24-37. It’s all the last day for everyone. The day of resurrection.
Can you tell me why you feel tribulation will be exactly 7 years?
IndependentConservative reply on April 29th, 2008 at 9:41 am :
Also, given we know the chapter and verse numbers were added by men well after scripture was written, look at what precedes 1 Thessalonians 5.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New American Standard Bible)
Taking it all together, what is above and 1 Thessalonians 5, it’s totally clear we are not going anywhere if we physically live till the end times. Not going anywhere till the end, His day, when He comes for us and judges the wicked.
April 28th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Anointed,
You dropped off the same message at Pulpit Pimps site also. So your someone we are familiar with. Let’s act more like people of discernment rather than Prophets. We all understand the food price issue and its complexities. Also, we all understand Rev 6 5:6. We are prepared here because most of us not only understand, but are also Post-Trib. Now regarding your dual interpretation regarding lack of spiritual food, yes we all know there will be a great falling away also. So next time be a little more open. We all know what’s going on. Besides being coy only makes you look like the fake Prophets on TBN. My suggestion is that we have “less” Prophets so-called and a lot more People of Discernment. This is a very important point indeed.
Kyle
godlysoldier reply on April 28th, 2008 at 2:36 pm :
THANK YOU KYLE! I didn’t know WHAT Anointed was “trying” to get at or “imply!”
April 28th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
IC,
I will look at the info tonight after I get out of work. However, I am still Post-Trib because that IS what the Church taught for over 1800 years until the 1800s came along.
Kyle
April 28th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Another interesting point in regard to Pre-Trib is the fact that Jesuit Priests came up with the theory. Tell this to some fundamentalist or pentecostal Bible Thumping Pastor and you will either see him fall out or get real read in the face.
You know what I am talking about. These Pre-Trib pastors would never want to be associated with anything Catholic, but their entire eschatology is based on Jesuit teachings.
VanceR reply on April 28th, 2008 at 11:27 pm :
Good Point, SteelGator. I visited the site http://www.historicist.com to read about the history of the “Rapture” teaching and was reaffirmed in the direction I was already leaning. I remember reading the Scripture about the end-times without any predisposed or predetermined viewpoint. I just let the scripture say what the scripture said and I just could not see where a “rapture” would occur. Now, I still don’t have everything in order as far as my thinking goes but certain verses make a lot more sense now that I don’t force a “Rapture” veiwpoint on them.