Many of us, with the cadre of bad doctrines we learned over the years, were told all Christians would be “raptured” before the tribulation, a pre-tribulation rapture. There are movies about it and it’s very much the popular thinking, sort of like so-called church tithing. But reading the Bible, I’ve tried to find legitimate support for the pre-tribulation view. I’ve reviewed outlines from pre-tribulation rapture teachers, even some teachers I respect claim there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. However, in all my studies actually using scripture as the guide, I see no support for a pre-tribulation rapture at all. I find it as clear as Matthew 24 and it’s post tribulation, just as the Lord Jesus said from His own mouth. Some claim the apostles indicated pre-tribulation rapture, but I’ve found the cited scriptures by pre-tribulation teachers only support post tribulation as Christ said and the apostles all affirm.
Here is a good movie to check out. It’s a bit more realistic than the “Left Behind” stuff. It details why the Bible clearly notes post tribulation for the Lord’s return.
I’ve got no issue with discussion of pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture here. But I don’t entertain any comments from Preterists, people who feel a rapture or partial rapture already occurred. I won’t spend time debating something I’ve debated already in other places and is heresy. (What Hank Hanegraaff has been doing in that regard [and his soft shoeing when it comes to speaking against many of the false teachers, that often are the people who let him into their buildings to peddle his goods] is just awful.)
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April 17th, 2008 at 3:32 am
This website helped me see the truth on the rapture. It thoroughly debunks a lot of the pretrib nonsense. A good read for those that are interested. http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/
April 17th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Well, I must say I disagree with you, however [and this is subject to criticism...] I believe that this is not an essential issue, in that it bears no relevance to our salvation. We can pre, mid or post-trib and still fellowshop together…
April 17th, 2008 at 10:07 am
What about Revelation 3:10 and the parable of the 10 virgins?
I believe that true believers will be raptured before the tribulation and some “believers” will be left behind to endure it, based on Rev. 3:10 and the parable of the 10 virgins (Jesus would not have called them virgins if they were not part of the church – but they represented those who have become lax in their walk). These passages suggest to me that there is a pre-trib rapture for those who are living right and a post trib deliverance for those who are not.
As you read regarding the 7 Churches of Asia Minor, why would He bother to tell the Church of Philadelphia the following, if no everyone is going through the trib?:
“10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
Also, how do you equate being called up to meet the Lord in the air with Him coming and setting His feet on the Mountain of Olives (why would we meet Him in the air if He’s coming down), and Him coming back with His saints? What saints is He coming back with if they were not caught up to meet Him in the air before the tribulation? It is a seven-year wedding feast.
I could be wrong, but, let me know what you think. Thanks.
IndependentConservative reply on April 17th, 2008 at 10:38 am :
Hi trayjay – This is a non-essential discussion, but one worth having.
The messages to those churches were to those then existing churches. Many confuse those statements to past churches for future events. We should certainly heed those warnings that were given to churches that received warnings, but what the Lord said to the church at Philadelphia during that time was relating to events of that time. Their being kept from a testing does not speak to resurrection at all. Their being “kept” does not even mean they were taken from the earth, they simply were not tested like everyone else. Revelation 3:10 says absolutely nothing about them being caught up to be with the Lord.
In the book of Revelation, there is no mention of saints being resurrected to be with the Lord till Revelation 20, which is post tribulation. It perfectly parallels the Lord’s statements in Matthew 24.
I don’t see anything in Revelation chapter 1 through chapter 3 that requires the Lord to have returned for those things to have likely already taken place. They could in a sense repeat and we know they are relevant to the actions of many churches today. But I’m not seeing any rapture there though.
I tell people all the time, I take Mark 13:33-37 seriously. If the Lord came right now I hope to be ready. I know I am His. I’m always on alert. I don’t claim to KNOW the day and hour of His return. However, for the events noted in scripture, there is no resurrection, no “rapture”, no “caught up” for anyone I see till post tribulation.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Hmm,
I may be bringing hellfire down on myself for making a “non-biblical” argument against pre-trib, BUT, it never made sense to me that if the first century Christians weren’t spared “slaughter”, why would the “end times” Christians be spared? Somebody’s gotta be around to “straighten out” the deceived!
April 17th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Well I myself believe that every born again christian will remain during this time period because to me this is the real testing of who is of the faith and who is not just my 2 cents.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
I settled on pre-trib awhile back, but always figured I could be wrong. Seems like it’s time for me to take a fresh look on the subject.
I listen to Bible Answer Man a couple of times a week, and haven’t been able to figure out where Hank stands. I’ve heard him deny he’s a preterist, so I suppose I’ll have to read his book to see what his deal is…
IndependentConservative reply on April 17th, 2008 at 12:30 pm :
Hank is a preterist who tries to act like he’s not. He buys into much of the preterist’s view. He’s trying to play as if preterists are partially right. He’s trying to have it both ways in a sense, but he is not right.
Personally speaking, I learned even more in scripture once I stopped listening to the “Bible Answer Man”.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I was raised to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but there was always this nagging question in the back of my head: “Just where in the Bible does it say that the church will be raptured before the tribulation?”
Anyway, if anyone is interested in a reasoned, scholarly approach to this subject, I would highly recommend George Eldon Ladd’s book, “The Blessed Hope”.
In addition, this website, http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/, provides a link to a “debate” on this subject between Tim Warner, author and editor of The Last Trumpet – Post-Trib Research Center, and Dr. Thomas Ice, author and director of The Pre-Trib Research Center. It’s interesting to see the different approaches each gentleman takes.
April 17th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
This video was a good find for your site.
This just reaffirms my position that we must be as the Bereans, who searched the Scriptures.
KJV
Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
That scenario w/the man who lived in the junk yard seems to be somewhat prophetic, because if the don’t meet death before the tribulation comes, they’ll be hated afterwards by the ones in which they decieved!
Too many people are finding pastor’s that appeal to their worldly lusts, to pursue the things that would cater to selfishness, instead of doing and giving to those that are w/out!
The reason we are blessed is to be a blessing to someone else, and not to heap riches upon ourselves. That’s why our country is in such sad shape presently w/credit card debt as well as the greed of those that are rich.
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Isa 5:13 ¶ Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because [they have] no knowledge: and their honourable men [are] famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Thanks for the post!
April 17th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
InCon,
I wish I had more time, but I feel I just HAVE to say something. I think there should be a bit more discussion on this topic. Several quick points:
1) God is NOT going to pour His wrath on His own.
1 Thess 5:9
2) The pre-tribulation rapture was taught by some in the early church, and was NOT an invention of a guy named Darby in the 1800’s.
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/examining_an_ancient.htm
(I know it may come from a “pimpish” source, but the research is valid)
3) What about
1 Thess 4:13?
1 Cor 15:51-52?
These scriptures clearly say that we ALL are
not going to sleep (die) How do I reconcile this in a historical context?
4) There is anecdotal evidence
Noah was spared judgement
Lot was also
Elijah was carried away supernaturally.
5) Jesus said “two will be in the field, one will be taken…”
All I am saying to the readers is do not imply that we who believe that there will be a rapture are ignorant.
(Even if you all rip my argument, I will still patronize this site, because it is filled with very useful info…so be kind!!)
IndependentConservative reply on April 17th, 2008 at 3:56 pm :
rev_ak -
1) 1 Thessalonians 5:9, it says we’re not going to receive judgment. That has nothing at all to do with being around during tribulation. The “Day of the Lord” is when He will return, that is what is being explained in 1 Thessalonians 5 as what will be wrath for the wicked and not for us saints.
Tribulation is NOT the final judgment spoken of regarding the Day of the Lord, when he returns. The final judgment involves the lake of fire for the wicked.
2) OK, so it’s a non-essential that has been debated for a long time.
3) 1 Thessalonians 4:13, what about it? If that’s something pre-trib please explain. It speaks of us having life in Christ and the world not. I’m not seeing pre-trib there.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52, did you watch the video? This was fully addressed. Did you notice the LAST TRUMPET statement? Revelation speaks of 7. This is totally post-trib. You’re helping me prove the point.
Of course we’re not going to die. We have eternal life in Christ Jesus.
4) Yes we will be spared judgment, that does not mean we won’t be here during tribulation. We will be spared the judgment of eternal damnation. I think you’re confusing tribulation with final judgment.
5) Matthew 24:40, yea that’s from Matthew 24 which is clear in saying:
Matthew 24:29-31 (New American Standard Bible)
Uh, that’s post-trib and Jesus is pretty clear about it.
April 17th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I’ve also just found a good teaching video on this subject.
Pre Trib Rapture Disproved, Post Trib Proved
April 17th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Also, I want to mention, I feel it is important although not “essential” that saints understand scripture speaks of a post-tribulation rapture, not pre-tribulation.
Because we are going to need each other like never before when tribulation does fall on us. We are going to have to be AT THE VERY LEAST mentally ready for things to come such as:
- Serious persecution like American saints have never experienced.
- Being totally ostracized from the global economic system.
- Being literally treated like enemies of the state for refusing a government mark and our testimony that Jesus is Lord. I feel THE MARK is likely to come in the form of an implanted microchip.
We are really going to need each other and it will be much harder to consider any form of preparation later on.
April 17th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I have truly been searching out the scriptures for true revelation on this very topic. As one having the “pre-trib” doctrine ingrained in my mind from my former church, I’m really in a somewhat “unclear” state. I don’t mind admitting that at this point in my walk with Christ as just coming out from under WOF teaching. I’m believing by faith and true leading of the Holy Spirit that He will lead me in the truth. I do agree that this is a non-essential regarding salvation, but as IC posted above (which I feel we need to be doing even now in light of what this world has come to) we do need each other like never before, whether pre, mid or post. God’s remnant has to stand together in this apostate evil age. The “just” truly has to live by faith in every area of our lives!
April 17th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Greetings,
The danger with the pre trib rapture is that the beast won’t be recognized by those expecting it. This is because these people will be confident that they will be taken away before it he comes. Even in the “Left Behind” series I am told that the Pope is raptured. Obviously this is a major error.
The tribulation will be seven years broken in two by the events in Revelation 11. In the Old Testament they needed two, count them two witnesses to convict anybody of a crime. We already have the Judge, the Lord Jesus, now we are just waiting for the two witnesses and their testimony.
When the two witnesses rise from the dead this is something very important. Satan you understand is deluded. The devil still thinks that he can defeat God. When God demonstrates His absolute authority by raising the two witnesses the devil will know his time is short. I believe the two witnesses will by called Anti Christ by the established religious and political figures of the day. This despite that they will not fit the Biblical descriptions of them. But then again most of those people who claim to be Christians don’t even open their Bibles to study at all.
I am a firm believer that the rapture will be at the end of time and the last event on this Earth. Revelation 20:5 clearly indicates that the general ressurection will come later. Revelation 20:12 speaks about the sea and death and Hades giving up their dead. This is in connection with 1 Thessalonians 4:16. 1 Thessalonians is not talking about Revelation 20:5 because in Thessalonians Paul is comforting the believers about those who have gone to sleep or died already. The ressurection in Revelation 20:5 is for those who have not received the mark of the beast. Now Mathew 25 in the parable of the ’sheeps and goats’ talks about a judgement of believers and non believers. We know this because some go to heaven and some go to hell. This corresponds to Revelation 20:15 where those not recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire.
Whatever the case may be I urge you to get ready to meet Jesus. We are not promised tomorrow.
Love,
John
April 17th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
I’ve gotta pipe in with IC on this. Firstly, as to ancient sources Rev, one sermon of dubious origin, without any other manuscripts to compare and contrast as a means of determining whether there has been scribal error or deliberate doctoring, hardly constitutes evidence.
The sort of manuscript evidence one would require to overturn the plethora of sources that contradict the views of this sermon are simply non existent.
Even if it was GENUINE (which is quite unlikely) all it proves is that one man believed something that no other sources from that period or earlier believed. It’s like someone finding the rantings of Jim Jones in one book 1500 years from now, and claiming that what nonsense he wrote must be considered as a valid doctrine despite the overwhelming evidence from thousands of other manuscripts that no one else recorded ever believing what he wrote.
Naturally, I can today point you to pseudopigraphic and Apocryphal books that will tell you that Jesus as a boy formed birds out of clay and blew on them to make them come alive, and that he once killed a playmate as a child for making Him angry, or that He spoke in the manger as a baby.They have even better evidence than the source Jeffries cites for the Pre Trib rapture, because at least we have more than one copy of these other fanciful books.
Naturally though, such books are patently false……and the sermon Jeffries cites must be put even lower than them on the believability scale.
So,we’re right back where we started………no attestable source in church history cites a Pre Trib rapture before Darby in the 1800s.
April 18th, 2008 at 2:21 am
Here is a web site a humble pastor contacted me about.
“Steps Toward the Mark of the Beast”
And unlike G. Craige Lewis who demands a fee be met before he speaks, About Pastor Guest
He pastors a church and I have to assume they ensure his needs are met and so he’s willing to equip saints via presentations without charge. That is a good thing and it would be good if more pastors followed this method.
G. Craige Lewis seems to have made up his own “ministry” and anybody who shares his material gets shut down.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Wow, how have I ever overlooked (until now) your stupendous blog? I agree with you one thousand percent! Are you familiar with the writings of journalist/historian Dave MacPherson? Since 1970 he has researched the long-hidden history of the 178-year-old pretrib rapture view and produced many web items including “Famous Rapture Watchers” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards.” And his 300-page bestselling book THE RAPTURE PLOT (Armageddon Books) which has gotten great reviews from leading evangelical scholars (Google “Scholars Weigh My Research”) dazzled me with mountains of data that no one seemed to be aware of for more than a century! If any one word describes pretrib history, it is the word “dishonesty” (plagiarism, occultism, revision of historical documents, phony D.D. degrees – and much more as his PLOT proves!). No, I am not a paid promoter of MacPherson, and he has written that all of his royalties have always gone to a nonprofit group that has never paid even salary to anyone. Even pretrib author Grant Jeffrey’s site admits that MacPherson’s historical research has caused “many” (his term) to abandon pretrib – and I hope that the same “many” will soon discover your wonderful blog like I have! Louise
IndependentConservative reply on April 18th, 2008 at 11:49 am :
Hi Louise,
I’ve heard the name Dave MacPherson in passing, but can’t say I know much about him. Taking a look at a site that host several of his writings, it appears he does note some things I have learned about the pre-trib theory. Perhaps he was the initial source of that information.
Some who endorse pre-trib cite cases of it being mentioned before the 1800’s, but it’s clear the events in the 1800’s is where the theory really started to take off. I’ve seen several claims of things before the 1800’s mentioning pre-trib, but those never really were accepted widely. (And it’s hard to even verify those claims as authentic, but regardless they are incorrect just the same and fail to agree with scripture.) The 1800’s events are where it really took off big time.
April 18th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Alright, I got to pipe in here. Thanks to IC for such great commentary.
As a background, I grew up in a Reformed denomination, but I also went to numerous Christian School – most of them Independent Baptist. Thus, I learned and was basically brainwashed into believing in the “Pre Trib” rapture. Even though my conservative reformed denomination taught differently, they never really gave me the information on the “post trib” belief.
Needless to say, I just sort of ignored the issue. With my pre trib friends, I could see where they were coming from, and with my Reformed brethren, I saw their Biblical perspective. It just wasn’t a big issue for me. I knew I was saved and I walked around with this “whatever will be will be attitude”.
It wasn’t until I started dating my wife and then got engaged that I really started to look into this issue. My father-in-law and brother in law would just say negative things about the Reformed doctrine. They also did not like that my soon to be wife was attending a reformed church with me. They also had (well, not my father in law but my brother in law)a problem that we were getting married in my reformed church. Long story short, for a few reasons (and I believe today because we got married in a reformed church) my Plymouth Brethren brother in law found a way to get overtime at work, so he had an excuse not to attend the wedding.
Through the years, my brother in law still continued to ride my case about post trib. I tried to be P.C. and not ruffle feathers. Thus, I used the old “Pan Millennial” joke….I am not pretrib nor post trib..I am pan-millennial as I know God will pan it all out in the end.
Anyway, my brother in law and father in law sparked a fire in side me to study the Word and figure our what God says on the issue. Through much study (and I am continuing to do so) I find it very had to prove a Pre Trib rapture and this view of end times.
Through these studies, I have found that I agree with what most of you have posted. However, I would like to note a few issues and see if any of you find these same issues with Pretribers.
1. Why are most Pretribers hateful and mean in their discussions with Post Tribers. I don’t ever see the “Love of Christ” in their arguments nor do I see the “peace of Christ”. I see guys like Dave Hunt be rude even indignant towards Christians that believe in the Post Trib eschatology. An example of the lack of “peace” is my mother in law. After 9/11, we went to visit. I left my Bible at home so I asked if I could borrower hers for my “quiet time”. As I flipped through the pages, I saw notes in the margins that said “9/11 – the Lord will return soon” etc etc. As time went on, I also noticed that my mother in law was starting to get very depressed and I think this was do to the fact that she thought the Lord was going to return right after 9/11. Since He has not, I think her Biblical foundation in a Pre Trib rapture was making her struggle with her faith.
2. Do you notice that most pretribers try to downplay higher education. Other than the “honorary Doctorates” or Doctorates from questionable Bible colleges and seminaries, many of the pretribers try to degrade the valid education of Post Trib scholars. Dave Hunt is one of the worst at this. He attacks men and women that have real PhDs in theology, linguistics etc etc. He tries to argue that their “higher education” has warped their mind into the so called false Post Trib doctrine.
3. When you show them the facts about Darby and the Irvinites (the girls whose visions Darby’s eschatology is built upon), they try to discredit the research as “hate-filled” or unchristian.
4. Here is a good link about pretrib dispensationalism… http://www.dispensationalism.org.uk/. As you will read, the pre trib doctrine really took off under Darby but the only previous “forefathers” even discussing this issue were the Jesuits. Last time I checked, the Jesuits are not Christians but Catholics.
5. Do you notice that ALL of the WOF false teachers and pulpit pimps are pretribers? I have yet to see a post trib, pulpit pimp.
6. I don’t like to question peoples’ faith, but do you think that one can be saved and still believe in the “pretrib rapture”. I mean, there are a lot of PreTribers (ie like Tim Lahaye who called the Reformed doctrine part of the devils work) that think that Post Tribers are not saved. I am starting to think that many of the hate filled PreTribers are not saved. Any thoughts?
In closing, I just pray for my family and friends that are pretribers. I have a great fear that many of them could be the ones that are apart of the “great falling away”. I do believe that we have an obligation to our pretrib and posttrib Christian brothers and sisters to share the Truth with them and help prepare their hearts and minds for the real tribulation that lays ahead.
IndependentConservative reply on April 18th, 2008 at 2:28 pm :
Dave Hunt is a very annoying brother, but I feel he (and other pre-trib folks) is our brother in Christ. Knowing when the Lord will return is not a condition of salvation, so long as you realize it is to come and has not already occurred, 1 Corinthians 15. Dave Hunt is the definition of “old and set in his ways”, he’s unlearned on some things and very willing to remain unlearned. Which will guarantee him a loss of some rewards in Heaven. (Because he had opportunity to know more truth and rejected it, scolded it and hates it, calling it evil. Which he mis-teaches to others, so he will be held accountable for that although his soul is saved, James 3:1 and 1 Corinthians 3.)
And yes, all the evidence of claims of pre-trib I’ve found that were around prior to the 1800s has ties to either Roman Catholicism or the Orthodox churches which keeps much of the same mess Roman Catholics do. (Also see: Satanism In Orthodox & Catholic Church) And the most verifiable pre-trib assertion before the 1800s was from a Jesuits/Roman Catholic.
April 20th, 2008 at 9:52 am
I personally believe in the Pre-Trib rapture of the church for numerous reasons but the main ones being:
The church isn’t mentioned at all during the tribulation chapters in the Book of Revelation
The Apostle Paul only tells the church to watch for Christ to come for us & not for the Tribulation
Jesus tells us in John 14:2-3 that he will come back & take us to be in the Father’s House.
A wedding is going on in heaven during the tribulation (with the church being the bride) & what good is a wedding without the bride?
Matthew 24 aligns with Mark 13, in which Jesus said followers would be flogged in the synogouges, which most likely wouldn’t apply to Gentiles, but the Jews.
IndependentConservative reply on April 20th, 2008 at 4:53 pm :
Hi Caleb,
The term “church” is not used after Revelation 3, until the last chapter, but the events up to Revelation 3 have all likely occurred already. Those 7 past churches were addressed, it does not mean there is no more church now, so we can’t affirm “church” not being used further into Revelation means there is no more church or will be no more. The term often used in Revelation to address us now and is also used in addressing tribulation events is “saints”. I think you will find saints throughout Revelation being mentioned and facing some rather intense persecution through tribulation. Nothing shows anything that can be claimed as any sort of resurrection or rapture or return saints till Revelation 20:4-6, all of which is post tribulation. If the measure is the use of the term “church” versus “saints” there’s a lot of scripture relating to the church where the term “saints” is used throughout scripture.
You might want to check out 2 Thessalonians 2. God has Paul make it clear that the saints will be here when the Anti-christ is in full bloom.
Sure and it does not mention anything about that occurring prior to the tribulation period.
You mean what is mentioned in Revelation 19:7-10? That’s post tribulation. Which is why it is in chapter 19.
When I read Mark 13 in full as with Matthew 24 it’s pretty clear Jesus says He will return after the church is hated and persecuted by the world for His sake.
And check this out!
Mark 13:24-27 (New American Standard Bible)
Clearly none of the elect are gathered till post tribulation. Prior to those verses, Christ mentions a shortening of days in Mark 13:20, but that can’t mean pre-trib rapture, because then as He says, nobody would be able to endure to be raptured post-trib if that were the case. So the “shortening” has to be ending time prior to the Anti-christ doing even worse than will occur.
April 20th, 2008 at 9:55 am
However, we all can agree that in the end, Jesus wins & we will have eternity with Him.
April 20th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Caleb,
The problem is not for you, I, or IC who are truly saved. For those who are saved it will be a wake up call that there is a post trib rapture. You will just have to adjust. However, the short film rightly points out those who are going to be deceived who thought they were saved and now are going to be bitter individuals. These will be the ones who will deliver you and I to the authorities during the tribulation period.
Kyle
April 21st, 2008 at 6:53 am
I agree with Caleb. As for the short film, it was just someone expressing their opinion via drama. Kyle’s comment:
However, the short film rightly points out those who are going to be deceived who thought they were saved and now are going to be bitter individuals. These will be the ones who will deliver you and I to the authorities during the tribulation period
I believe this is true from the standpoint of those who believe they are saved will get a wake up call when the rapture happens and they are still here; people who think that going to church makes them christians, yet have no real relationship with God.
I believe the “Christians” who will be “left behind” will be those who are not true worshipers (worshiper: one who is intimately acquainted with and has a daily communion and relationship with the Most High God). The parable of the 5 foolish virgins tells me that some will be taken before the tribulation to enter the marriage feast, and the foolish ones will be left to deal with the tribulation. It just doesn’t make sense for Christ to have given this parable otherwise.
The bottom line is that I don’t believe that people like us would be unprepared if/when the anti-christ appears before the rapture because we are biblicaly clear enough to recognize him (pre-or-post rapture). The danger would be if we refuse to see it because we believed in a pre-rapture. While I don’t think I’m wrong about a pre-rapture, my relationship with the Lord is such that I have no issue with re-grouping when I’m found to be wrong.
There is, of course, also the argument of some who believe in a pre-rapture that say that the anti-christ will not be revealed until we are taken up. Personally, I don’t particularly care; I am looking for Jesus. If it turns out that we go through the tribulation, so be it. Meanwhile, I’m keeping myself in the ready for whatever befalls us. But it is my understanding that the tribulation period is really for the Jews who have not received Jesus as Lord. This is the time of Jacob’s trouble. And what of the scripture that says: “and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)
Bottom line: BE READY – WHATEVER GOD’S PLAN IS – JUST BE READY. Remember, your individual rapture could be at any moment. We shall not all sleep, but none of us are promised tomorrow.
April 21st, 2008 at 10:08 am
Hey trayjay,
Viewing pre-trib based on Matthew 25, doesn’t that mean you’d have to avoid Matthew 24 speaks 100% post-trib? You should also consider this section of Matthew 25.
Matthew 25:31-34 (New American Standard Bible)
The foolish virgins corealte perfectly with the following from that same chapter.
Matthew 25:44 (New American Standard Bible)
We know when Jesus gave a parable, He did not leave the Apostles wondering about the interpretation. He gave them the clear interpretation after the parable if there might be anything they did not understand. Which gives us clear understanding of the parable. All the events are post tribulation, nothing there to indicate any tribulation at all. Tribulation is mentioned in Matthew 24 though and we are told He won’t return for anyone till afterwards. I can’t take a passage that does not speak to tribulation at all and claim it indicates one group going prior to tribulation, then tribulation comes and others talk with Jesus afterwards, it’s just not in the parable at all.
The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 says absolutely and I mean absolutely nothing about any sort of tribulation at all. So please explain HOW it can be looked at to deduce a pre-tribulation rapture?
The parable of the virgins also agrees with Luke 12:35-48, which again has no indication at all of any pre-tribulation rapture.
Let’s say I take Matthew 25:1-13 as indication of pre-tribulation rapture. What about the saints that refuse the mark of the beast and get into Heaven (Revelation 20:4), where are they in this parable? For the pre-tribulation view to work, you’d need to add to this parabale statements of additional virgins, who somehow got a bit of oil by refusing something evil. It’s simply not there. This does not show pre-tribulation rapture at all. You’d need some late arrival post wedding virgins or something.
So long as you’re willing to be open to the possibility you will be here (if you physically live till then) when the Anti-christ appears and during tribulation. Because as the saying goes, if you’re right and I’m wrong, it really won’t matter because we’d be gone, but if I’m right and you’re wrong, than you better be ready for trouble.
So I read Luke 21 in full and see nothing of a pre-tribulation rapture. I see nothing but saints enduring persecution. Verse 24 is in full progress RIGHT NOW. Who runs Jerusalem today? Arab Muslims. Who has been running Jerusalem since Rome took it? All but the Hebrews/Jews. The Jews have experienced Luke 19:41-44 via Rome and still don’t have Jerusalem under their control.
I really tried to see this supposed pre-tribulation rapture in scripture and as I’ve noted I researched the teachings of some who claim their will be such, but I must say, it’s not really there. It’s a stiching together of scriptures that are not speaking of pre-tribulation rapture at all.
I think the bottom line is that many fear having to endure tribulation. I advise praying the Lord help you get over that fear, instead of trying to ignore what will come.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:06 am
I think we know our faith started with the Hebrews, from whom the Messiah came into the world in flesh. And even in the Hebrew scriptures, they were taught of a resurrection to come.
Daniel 12:1-2 (New American Standard Bible)
Notice, there is no division in time, but all resurrected after a time of distress. This was the common Hebrew teaching. There was no concept of “pre-trib” rapture, just a resurrection to come after distress. It is not stated rescue comes for anyone before the distress, but rather distress and then rescue, which matches the shortening of time mentioned in Mark 13 (verse 20) and that chapter speaks totally of a post-tribulation gathering in verse 27. The Lord’s are rescued into eternal life and the wicked are given eternal damnation. There will be no rescue for the wicked, they will go from bad to an eternity of worse.
Paul speaks of the debate Hebrews had over resurrection in Acts 23, but it had NOTHING to do with when it would occur, but rather whether or not there was a resurrection. Nobody took issue with Paul feeling there was a resurrection except those who did not believe in a resurrection. There was no concept of a pre-trib point to debate. And Paul said to them.
Acts 24:14-16 (New American Standard Bible)
And see what Jesus said in John 5:24-32.
There was never a notion of pre-trib rapture, but rather rapture at the end of time. The only thing in New Testament scripture that shows anything new regarding resurrection is the mention of a 1000 year reign with Christ for martyrs and those who refuse the beast, Revelation 20:4. And that introduced prophesy of a 1000 year reign for martyrs with Christ is post tribulation, given it includes those who refused the beast.
This is why the historical record for claims of a pre-tribulation rapture are scant, it’s not in scripture.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:10 am
Hey trayjay: I agree with IC on this, but I do want to commend you on your ability (the Holy Spirit will give you) to switch doctrine’s mid stream. If you are right, praise God but if IC and I are correct, praise God as well.
I think IC hit the nail on the head in regard to many pre-tribers when he wrote, “I think the bottom line is that many fear having to endure tribulation. I advise praying the Lord help you get over that fear, instead of trying to ignore what will come.”
IC, I do have another question. Have you ever heard a pre-triber use the story of Sodom and Gomorrah to rationalize the “pretrib rapture”? I think it goes like this. God saved Lot and his family from destruction just like He will rapture and save His children from the tribulation and destruction at the end of time. This just not square with me. I think this is a big stretch. I don’t think Lot’s story talks about the end times.
I too just pray that God will open the eyes of ALL His children that we may see clearly what God has for us to endure.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:42 am
SteelGator – The message of Sodom and Gomorrah certainly speaks of a coming judgment and salvation for the righteous. The righteous who DON’T LOOK BACK and endure till the END, keeping faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. For that to be the case, those who are saved MUST endure through all the trouble from the wicked before the wicked are judged. See 2 Peter 2 and how it speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lots of other similar examples in scripture.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to claim pre-trib rapture is confirmed there. All that Lot avoided was being DESTROYED! Which was the most important thing to avoid. Not the trouble before the destruction, they suffered through all of that. Righteous souls tortured! And with the coming Anti-christ, there will be a certain torture to endure and saints will have to endure till the END.
April 21st, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Thanks IC for your input. I mis-spoke initially. To clarify, I do see that the Sodom and Gomorrah message speaks to the end times. I just never could and certainly can’t now see that this has anything to do with the pre-trib rapture.
In studying this, I also find that Lot’s wife could be seen as part of the “great falling away”. She didn’t totally believe God not did she trust God with blind faith. She turned back to look (i.e. turned her back on God) and was destroyed for her disobedience. This view maybe a stretch but it makes much more sense than the pre-trib rapture view.
April 21st, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I.C. and Steel, when I get to work tomorrow, I will open this up and study what you have written. Do you mind if I copy and paste it into another document for study purposes only? I really want to get into this. Like I said, either way is fine with me, but for the sake of others, I would like to educate myself to give others something to chew on when this subject comes up. I really appreciate your diligence in the matter and for being so willing to share and endure with those who disagree. Often times we tend to argue and become offensive, but your tones here have been more Christ-like than I’ve seen before. Again, thank you.
April 21st, 2008 at 4:31 pm
trayjay – Feel free to copy.
I’m continually praying the Lord will me the self control to keep my tone at a proper level. And with this non-essential, that involves people I know are not trying to endorse false teachers I’ve hoped to remain cool.
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:32 am
I.C., as I was scrolling through the comments, I noticed a comment that you made about G. Craig Lewis. I was just wondering why you are so against him. I’m not trying to start anything, but it just seems like you hate the guy.
I know that many people don’t like him, and from what I’ve seen, most because of his stand against hip-hop (I would even say that it is people who like hip-hop who are mostly against him/his message).
I just wondered why you thought this whole string warranted bringing him into it. Why was he being compared to this Guest guy. Sure, he charges a fee, but not everyone has someone behind them to support the financial part of their ministry. You said yourself in the comment that Guest has financial support, which means to me that it is unfair to compare the two.
Secondly, I understand why you are bothered by the fact that people’s youtube accounts have been shut down, but how do you deal with that side of it without dealing with copyright laws and how they are being broken by these youtubers? I just believe in being fair on all sides.
Yes, I am a G. Craige Lewis supporter, but that is not why I’m writing this comment. Do I agree with everything he says – of course not, but I have almost all of his videos and show them to as many people as I can.
I personally am right now dealing with a copyright issue. If someone took a play that I wrote, directed, and produced, and I saw it on youtube, I would have them shut down, too. Why? Because you are stealing someone else’s material. They can do a youtube of their own. If they believe in his message, then they should either get his permission, or produce a youtube video of their own.
Copyright laws are copyright laws and we are instructed in the Word of God to obey the laws of the land. He is not just selling videos of him preaching, he is sharing information from hours of research. Whether we agree with what he says or not, he has to support his ministry. I will say that I think that he, as well as others, are charging too much for the videos, but nevertheless, it is material that he put together and that material is protected by copyright laws.
I just didn’t see the point in you bringing him into the comments at all. Anyone who is a self-supporter of their ministry will need to charge some form of fee. It cost money to do what he does. And his fees are not what most charge.
I personally think that he is being persecuted because of his message and because people who love hip-hop don’t want to give it up.
I understand that you disagree with some of his teachings, but not everyone agrees with you either; no one alive today has everyone agreeing with everything they say. We all read scripture and disagree with what our interpretations are. But we must see the difference between interpretation and heresy (like someone teaching people that we are gods, and that we must look to the god in ourselves, and that God is 6 feet tall, or something stupid like that).
Sorry if I have offended you. I say it all in love. My main point is fairness in addressing both sides of the issue.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:31 am
Trayjay, please see my response to you regarding Mr. Lewis and let’s continue this discussion there.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
In comment #22 above, when I mentioned “Arab Muslims” in relation to Jerusalem, I should have stated explicitly that Jews do not have full control of the old temple. So despite any claims they (Jews) make to having all of Jerusalem under their control, they do not. Their most revered spot of all is not in their hands. Flat out pagan enemies of God have it. So the trampling of Jerusalem as Christ said and is noted in Luke 21:24 continues.
May 3rd, 2008 at 5:24 am
What I’ve always thought is that if the Church came into being in severe, painful labor… perhaps its cleansing, or rebirth, will be just as severe and painful.
Why do we think we’re safe and secure? Yes, as Christians we walk by faith, but what makes you think you don’t need to be tempered in the fire? Are you that ‘perfect’ already?
On one hand I want to say that it doesn’t matter if 10 Christians believe in 4 different things concerning the tribulation (what are they — pre, post, mid and I guess that ‘already happened’ viewpoint), but it does kind of matter, I’ve come to understand.
Pampering people and giving them a false hope…almost fostering an elitist mindset…it’s wrong!
Instead of one group being right or wrong, why can’t we all just prepare ourselves to go through hell just in case we may have to? We’re soldiers for Christ Jesus! So instead of sitting around like we’re in peace time and will not see the next great world war, why not get ourselves in bootcamp just in case…just in case we’ll be put on the battlefield and have to put our lives on the line?
IndependentConservative reply on May 4th, 2008 at 10:54 pm :
LaVrai.COM you mentioned:
Of those, the last “that ‘already happened’ viewpoint” is the one that you especially should not consider simply a “viewpoint”. It is a heresy, that the Apostles of the Lord Jesus denounced as false gospel. Please see 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Timothy 2:16-18. Claiming that the resurrection has already occurred was not taken lightly by the Apostles and today we should see it as nothing less than heresy too.
Jesus made it clear, His return will be fully evident to all, it won’t be a thing that is done in secret or somehow mistaken by anyone, Matthew 24:27, Matthew 24:30 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
October 27th, 2008 at 1:47 am
Whta about those who claim that the Holy Ghost must be remeoved before the AntiChrist appears and they maintain that it means that the Church must be raptured out before the tribulation(I think they get it from 2Thess. 2:6). I am aware that the 70th week has already been fulfilled, there are verses in the NT that do use the word tribulation in reference to a time period, I would submit that the time period that word refers to is the Church Age(correct me if i’m wrong), so I would believe in the post-trib. theory(minus a 7-year period between Israel and Anti Christ).
IndependentConservative reply on October 27th, 2008 at 11:39 am :
Hi Coyne1988,
2 Thessalonians 2:5-10 (New American Standard Bible)
Yea I’ve heard what you’ve been told about the Holy Spirit supposedly being taken away in verses 6-7. (The pre-trib teaching is the most prevalent these days, so it’s far better known than what is actually in the Bible.) However, it is not mentioned that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and even if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, verse 7 does not say the restrainer will leave this world completely. Just that “he is taken out of the way”. So whatever is restraining the Antichrist, be it an angel, or the Holy Spirit, or whatever Paul told them and we don’t know what Paul told them, people are making up via eisegesis what they feel the restrainer actually is. That restrainer will be taken out of the Antichrist’s way, but that does not definitively mean taken from this world totally. If that restrainer is the Holy Spirit, He the person of the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the Antichrist’s way, but this does not mean He would totally leave the earth and it does not mean saints are “raptured” while the Antichrist is revealed.
And although verses 6-7 mention a “he” being taken out of the way, I am having trouble finding an actual pronoun use of “he” relating to the restrainer mentioned in the Greek (TR) text. What restrains the Antichrist might not even be an actual person. Perhaps the Lord has put up some form of restraining hedge, that will be removed? Bottom line, we don’t know what Paul said the actual restrainer is. If someone who feels they are proficient in Biblical Greek sees an actual pronoun type reference to the restrainer as a definitive “he” in the Greek text, please let me know. I’m not seeing the Greek terms “arti” or “ginomai” as absolutely having to mean a “he” as a person. It seems to possibly point to an “it” rather than necessarily being a “he”. It’s non-specific and the text does not appear to specify at all. So I feel it is whatever the Lord put in place, be it person or otherwise and leave it at that. It does not support pre-trib no matter how it’s viewed.
October 27th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Greetings,
Hope you are all well.
This recent exchange about the scripture in Thessalonians brings up a very point. Some people are taught things as if they were firmly grounded in scripture when they aren’t. I try to remember who taught me what and what kind of life they lived.
I recall one ‘pastor’ who always taught that the gospel is the ‘death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ’. No the gospel is translated good news. While the death burial and ressurection is an essential part of the gospel we must without doubt include the life and teachings of Jesus in the good news.
The man who taught me that was later divorced from his wife for being a promiscuous homosexual among other things. In fact at the divorce trial photographs were presented that left little to doubt.
It is the job of a Christian to go back and look at the scriptures and understand what it really says. We should never trust men at all! I know this is very difficult especially for the younger. I was brought up in the catholic church and what a whopper full of lies they taught me! Yet when I moved on to the Church of Christ there were things they taught me too. I just followed in line believing what was taught without questioning. Only when I had become thouroughly entrenched in the content of scriptures could I begin to see the errors in my education.
A true teacher in the Spirit of God would never mind a person questioning their teachings. After all Jesus gave some of His best lessons in response to questions. If you ask a pastor a question and he tells you that it is innapropriate then I would advise you to leave that church as quick as you could. Such nonsense of “don’t touch my annointed” is a very wicked catch phrase which means ‘believe whatever I tell you and don’t question what I do.’
That is why blogs like the Healtheland are so important and vital to me. It brings together many people with many different views on the Bible. There is certainly much disagreement but yet there is only one truth.
Love,
John