The Baltimore Sun has produced a lengthy article about the Bryant’s pending divorce. The rest of this post assumes you will take a moment to read that full 2 page article in full.
There’s a lot I could say, but I’ve already said plenty on this. The issue I need to raise in this post is that as the article mentions regarding the AME Church organization:
There is no punishment for pastors who get divorced, Richardson said, though the conference might require a pastor to apologize to the congregation or not preach for a period of time.
This is a serious problem. Now granted, scripture does not condone this psedo-Roman Catholic model of acting like the title “Bishop” is different from the title “Elder” and placing one over the other. But Jamal’s club obviously does not have good internal oversight.
A local church should have a group of elders on equal footing, with one as the speaking elder. If an elder gets out of line, he is to be removed and if it is the speaking elder that must be removed, another of the elders should assume the role of speaking elder. That is NOT how things are at most church assemblies. So with a group like the AME organization, it is assumed the “Bishops” will address problems at a local church assembly.
Well what can the AME organization leaders do? Ask him to sit down for a while. They can’t remove him and they are not talking about disassociating from him.
So let me just post what the Bible, the Word of God, the real documented authority says about these matters.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 notes, that we are not to simply “pray” for a so-called brother that continues in immoral activity, we are to fully disassociate from them. To the point of not even eating with them. Gizelle Bryant has found a need to disassociate herself from her husband because of his continual immoral behavior, but all the AME organization might do is talk about it, have him say “sorry” and maybe sit him down for a while. Unfortunately, for a church leader, that does NOT fulfill the command of scripture. With lay members, having them apologize and return to fellowship is within scripture’s commands. However, for a leader, they are to be men of a higher standard. When we look at 1 Timothy 3, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a church elder/bishop/pastor/overseer/(whatever other titles have been made for that man looked to as the church leader) to be a divorced man with such a bad reputation that it’s a full spread in the local city newspaper. We see the same in Titus 1. In 1 Timothy 5 we see that good elders are to be appreciated, given a salary, but elders caught in sin are to be rebuked as an example to all the others. Verse 21 notes that it is to be done WITHOUT PARTIALITY, meaning no favoritism. It is to be the blanket rule for all. Verse 22 notes that no man is to be given a role in church leadership quickly (“Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily”), because fellow church leaders should not do anything that might burden them with another man’s sins (“and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.”). The bottom line is that Jamal-Harrison Bryant was assuming church leadership and accepted by others as such too early, even before he got married, given he started “Empowerment Temple” in 2000, but has only been married 5 1/2 years according to the article. He is a man who was viewed as a church leader too hastily and one of the passages of scripture I mentioned fully details why he should be no longer viewed as a church leader.
1 Timothy 3:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
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If the AME Church organization does not fully disassociate from Jamal-Harrison Bryant, while knowing what he’s done and is likely to continue doing, they bring condemnation on themselves by who they laid their hands on.
I found a good video that discusses the issues facing Jamal-Harrison Bryant. The only thing that might work in Bryant’s favor is that his sins are known by all now and perhaps it will cause him to repent of sexually immoral behavior.
But with Jamal-Harrison Bryant, there is more. He’s promoting the following event.
Another conference full of false doctrines. His terrible doctrine THAT IS NOT the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. His doctrine and those associating with him is denounced in 1 Timothy 6 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15. The money preaching is bad. Tossing people into leadership roles that don’t qualify including himself and women into roles of leadership and instruction over men is bad.
Perhaps the most abhorrent of those that will be at Jamal-Harrison Bryant’s “Empowerment Island Encounter” which I call PIMP ISLAND is Mike Murdock. See this most egregious of pimps in action in the video footage below.
If you read the scriptures I’ve already noted, you’ll know why that is total sin.
Flee these people that do evil and even flee those that maintain relationships with them. Given the evil is well known and saints should be fleeing them, not flocking to them.
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February 17th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
The “Birds of a feather” rule applies to this gallery of false teachers. Mike Murdock constantly pronounces that curse upon himself in his “prayers,” while Benny Hinn pronounces curses upon “any man or woman who dares speak against his ministry.” You feel fear for them. Or, as David says, “Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.” (Psalm 119:136)
So much loss to come over such little gain if they don’t repent their ways. But, how shall they restore what they’ve taken when Zaccheus restored four-fold to all he cheated? Where would they get that kind of money? Can you imagine how much it would cost them to do what Zaccheus did?
February 18th, 2008 at 12:09 am
I just remembered another passage from Psalm 119 about the fear their predatory work should cause us: “Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.” (v. 53)
Makes you realize just how much this world needs Jesus to return. And, when He does, He’s taking vengeance upon all who do not know God and don’t obey His gospel.
IndependentConservative reply on February 18th, 2008 at 12:16 am :
These pimps always make me think of Psalm 10.
stan reply on February 18th, 2008 at 12:34 am :
Very appropriate.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Maybe it’s my juvenile mind, but this sounds more like a telethon than a preacher spreading the Word. BTW his self-cursing holds no wait anyway
February 18th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Anyone who calls a curse upon Him self in My opinion would be a Demon,Even Satan knows the Scripture.What fool who is knowledgable in the least would call a curse upon themselves,They Know that there is no Retribution from their Father, for they truly are of the Devil.
SteelGator reply on February 19th, 2008 at 1:14 pm :
Great points…What is up with him calling a curse upon himself. Why won’t God just
give him what he wants and destroy him?
IC, any thoughts?
IndependentConservative reply on February 19th, 2008 at 1:40 pm :
Like I said, people like him are all that Psalm 10 speaks about. He does not really fear God, or even know of Him. I don’t feel a person who really believes God exists could say such things, given what we know. Psalm 137:6 is not to be toyed with like that, or used as a tool to collect money.
Unless Mike Murdock is granted repentance, he’s on the bad end of the clay!
Romans 9:21-24 (New American Standard Bible)
A vessel fitted for destruction is what he very possibly will prove to be, if that mouth of his does not ever form words of repentance for what he is doing. He appears to be one drawing in those with hearts that are not right and locked in the iniquity noted in Acts 8:20-23. Thinking their money can buy a move of God on their behalf, along with those working with him as if they can sell one.
Even if Jamal Bryant was faithful to his wife, how can his AME organization stand to remain associated with him? I think it’s really got something to do with money, because it’s certainly not about sound doctrine.
stan reply on February 19th, 2008 at 10:10 pm :
Steelgator: I believe God does not destroy them so quickly because He uses them to weed out the false believers. They will follow these wolves. It is these false believers who want these kinds of teachers to tell them things their itching ears want to hear. So, God gives them over to these smooth-talking parasites. So, He “bears long with these vessels of wrath.”
February 22nd, 2008 at 9:23 am
The world definitely needs Jesus to return. Especially, self-righteous hypocrites who have nothing better to do but spout their opinions all over a blog. I wonder what you all did last night, or a few days ago, or even a few years ago. Is someone on this blog addicted to drugs, alcohol, pornography even? I wonder if anyone ever cheated on a boyfriend or girlfriend, or divorced a spouse. OH MY! We all must be without sin. I think I just found the Jackpot! The blog of perfect Christians! Why don’t we all just post all our mistakes and issues so that Independent Conservative can pull out the Bible and condemn us all to eternal damnation. Independent Conservative, you are definitely a leader. A leader of judgement, confusion, criticism and hate. Take those words and digest them since you like to spout scriptures from the Bible. Look those words up and see what they say. While you all are criticizing Jamal Bryant and other ministers, I wonder what Jesus would say to Jamal. Would he forgive him like he forgave the Prostitute or maybe he’ll forgive him like God forgave Paul the murderer. And wasn’t Paul used mightily by God? Or just maybe he’ll forgive him like God forgives you all for all your grotesque sins. I know he forgives me. I’m a 21-year old college student with a history you wouldn’t believe. On numerous occasions I’ve watched this “False Prophet” as some of you, especially you Independent Conservative, like to call him. I saw sincerity and anointing and it has blessed my life. He has no doubt been used by God in my life because I’m living the evidence. Ever since I first heard him speak on TBN, with the other false prophets I guess, He has blessed my life. We are all only human,and you people don’t think the Devil will try to use whatever He can to cause God’s people to stumble. He’s using you all right now. I don’t care if Jamal Bryant pimped whores from his church, do you think I’m going act all high and mighty on a blog because no one sees my face or knows my past? I think not, because I don’t answer to you all, I answer to God and when Christ returns and I stand before him on judgement day, I don’t want the question of “Why did you judge Jamal Bryant as if you are without sin” to be added to my long list of bad behavior.
IndependentConservative reply on February 22nd, 2008 at 10:35 am :
GMRM says:
I know what He’ll say if Jamal does not come to true repentance, Matthew 7:15-23. See it there in verse 23. Jamal is displaying the bad fruit in doctrine AND deed!
Did you not notice in your Bible how once God granted repentance to Paul and a prostitute how they FOLLOWED JESUS and TURNED FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS? Jamal claims the Lord’s name, but is involved in all manner of immorality CONTINUALLY, go read 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 as was recommended in the post. Jamal claims to be a follower of Jesus while engaged in CONTINUAL EVIL. Till he really starts living for Christ instead of spreading that false gospel you repeat from people like him, he’s lost and you might be pit bound with him, Luke 6:39-40. Thinking you are learning from a man of true and light, when you are misled by a false teacher, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
You should be seeking to follow the commands of God, not pimps. You’ve learned some things in a twisted doctrine that is not the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus. Yes Christ forgives the sins of those who believe on Him and those who try to use His name for personal gain are acting outside of the truth. Consider the fact is that the Bible teaches a message of Contentment, not financial reward.
Have you ever read 1 Timothy 3 in full? You should read this post again an READ THE SCRIPTURES LINKED IN FULL.
You talk a lot, but you’re VERY SHORT on scripture. You need a better foundation. We’re not talking about Jamal’s past before salvation, we are talking about his continual present while he assumes a role of church leadership. Mess that only continues and has been going on for some time. Would you care if Jamal raped a member of your family? Does he have to get to the point of being found guilty of breaking a law of man before you care?
You speak of how you have a sinful past, as we all do. However you don’t speak of still keeping in those ways. You claim to have been forgiven and not into such continually. You seem not to wish to repeat your history, while we see Jamal Bryant doing mess continually. See that first video above again, adulterers who keep putting their adultery before following Christ WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
You’re running from 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 and offering a philosophy of man in claiming no saint should judge when a church leader gets out of line.
GMRM, you honestly are not well trained in the scriptures. You’re 21 and have not been claiming to be a Christian very long. You’re still trying to figure out what much of Christianity is. I recommend you read your Bible away from people like Jamal-Harrison Bryant. Read how the Lord Jesus and His Apostles commanded the church be. Any good and any true repentance you have experienced is from God and you should not place it on loyalty in a man who is misleading you and offering a terrible example.
February 22nd, 2008 at 10:50 am
Don’t recommend much of anything to me sir. Don’t bring my age into this and don’t tell me what I have been taught. I understand what the Bible says very well which is why I can say what I have to say without putting a list of verses underneath my name. Did I place loyalty in a man? I said Jamal Bryant was used by GOD because he was. The bottom line is that YOU sir are not GOD and this blog is not the BIBLE. You keep talking about “my Bible” and what I don’t understand, while you so conveniently overlook the fact that what your blog represents is not Christlike. And since I seem to be so SHORT on scripture, here’s one for you: James 4: 11,12: Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. BUT YOU ARE NOT A JUDGE WHO CAN DECIDE WHETHER THE LAW IS RIGHT OR WRONG. YOUR JOB IS TO OBEY IT. GOD ALONE WHO MADE THE LAW, CAN RIGHTLY JUDGE AMONG US. HE ALONE HAS POWER TO SAVE OR TO DESTROY. SO WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO CONDEMN YOUR NEIGHBOR. Is this in your Bible Independent Conservative? Don’t present your facts to me, present the Bible’s, all the facts in the Bible.
IndependentConservative reply on February 22nd, 2008 at 11:02 am :
GMRM, or should I call you Crystal 08, I saw your comments against me on my brother Job’s blog and he responded to you rightly.
It is clear you are a woman who is headstrong and refusing any sound instruction in truth. You are banished from here unless or until you are able to learn a better way. I can’t spend forever with someone not ready for the truth.
I presented scripture to you showing what the Bible instructs regarding who should be a church leader and you have rejected it. Claiming I’m judging outside of the bounds of scripture. While you defend a man who lives outside of it.
February 6th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
independent conservative.
i notice that you said about jamal that he is
‘Tossing people into leadership roles that don’t qualify including himself and women into roles of leadership and instruction over men is bad.’
i dont know a lot of these people. i just know enough by the grace of God to not entertain any of the false teachers on tv especially tbn.
i know that paul said women should not speak in church and that they should ask their husbands at home if they have any questions. i also know that the bible says women should be submisive to their husbands (not men) but their husbands.
but we also see in 2 John a woman elected to run a church and being instructed about how to run it. you know about deborah who was appointed as a judge. prophetess huldah whom the king and even the high priest went to inquire of her because she was a prophetess. one of the apostles had two daughters that prophesied. and the list goes on of women in the bible who were used by God.
we also see Jesus in the gospel giving the great commission to all believers, men and women.
my question to you is. if the great commision was given to all and through out the bible both men and women did a great work for God. why is it a crime or sin according to you for women to spread the gospel?
what do men have that women dont, to preach the gospel? dont they both have the ability to share the gospel? ie mouth, brain, ability to pray and seek God and read scripture..?
if women should not be in leadership positions then why did the apostles elect a woman and give her instruction to lead a church?
and if that is the absolute will of God that women should not share the gospel? then why did He use all those women and why did He give then His annointing?
did God run out of men in israel that He had to go against His own words and will and elect and annoint women? if it is such a sin then why did He do it?
stan reply on February 6th, 2009 at 9:29 pm :
“JesusisGod:”
Sharing the gospel is not the same category of ministry as being in leadership, so, both women and men are responsible to share it wherever and whenever possible.
As to other examples of women in prominence, there is Priscilla who is usually named first between her and her husband, Aquila. Also, Phoebe was commissioned over everyone else to take the letter of Romans from Corinth to Rome. As to the Elect Lady, there has been a long unsettled disagreement as to the nature of this greeting. Some suppose “Elect” and “lady” to be proper names, some suggest it is the church at Babylon, others say it is the church in general, some say the name is suppressed so as not to expose this particular woman to unnecessary persecution should the letter become published around and fall into wrong hand. So, it may not be the best example to support your suggestion of a woman in leadership whom John is addressing.
Despite these exceptions concerning women that you mention too, the rule was, the men led. You cannot develop church-wide doctrine and policy on exceptions when a rule is already stated, which it is. Plus, you have to go back to Paradise when things were ideal to determine the mind of God about the roles for the genders. The woman was made a suitable helper to Adam. They were not made at the same time in the same way. If they were, they’d be equal. Paul makes this point in 1 Tim 2:13 – Adam was formed first, then the woman, giving Adam the preeminence. 1 Corinthians 11:8 and 9 support this too: For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
Having the first place in authority is not necessarily all that enviable because it was Adam and not Eve who is blamed for bringing sin into the world. For as the head, he had the more severe penalty leveled at him for eating of the fruit (even though both were affected).
God made sure that the woman was not discounted in the circle of life for Paul, who announces the leadership rule concerning men in 1 Corinthians 11, also said this: Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
IndependentConservative reply on February 7th, 2009 at 3:12 pm :
Well Stan has already addressed this well. But I’ll mention, the elect lady in 2 John could be the church and if a certain woman it does not assert she was an elder. If to a single woman and her children, it would be more sensible to say the letter was to a woman with a household of children. Especially since 2 John 1:10 mentions not letting certain people into a “house” and not giving them a greeting. In verse 1, John affirms himself as the elder, not the lady. If the letter was sent to an individual who was “the elect lady” it does not mean she held any church office. All saints are elect, even children. Saying she’s elect does not place her in church leadership. Saying someone was elect does not mean there was a vote to place them in church leadership, that’s a very Western way of viewing the term “elect”. It would be good to view the videos Election Day Part 1 and Election Day Part 2, to see how the term “elect” is used in scripture.
After the passage from 1 Tim 2 which Stan noted comes 1 Timothy 3 and we know a woman can’t be the husband of one wife. The gender roles for certain tasks is clear and as Stan noted, it flows all the way back to the garden. Jesus selected 12 men and they selected another man to replace Judas, a woman was not even in the selection process.
This does not mean women should not share the gospel, yes all saints do, but with church order certain roles are only for certain men. (Not even most men, but certain men.) And there are certain roles women perform often in things like certain counseling of women, that are not appropriate for a man.
Deborah and the daughters of Phillip were prophetesses. Phillip was not an Apostle, he was an Evangelist. Now I hope you don’t think a man’s daughters held authority in the House of God over him. Prophets are not elders and that’s why there are separate terms “prophet” and “elder”. They are not at all synonymous. The term elder existed even in the Old Covenant times and was never a role of women. 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3 go fully together and are consistent with the actions of Jesus. Men selected to lead and give instruction to the church.
Some other items to review for understanding:
The Use of Women as Elders
and
Female Leadership in the Church
And I’ll close by saying, if a woman can hold authority over men in the House of God, how illogical would it be to claim any man could ever be head over a wife in their household? Ephesians 5 proves the marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church! Scripture is consistent, the Word of God and His Spirit agree and anything not in agreement is out of order. No women or children should be claiming to be elders and teaching over assemblies with men. Women can teach over groups with women, not men.
The prophet Isaiah lamented women and children assuming roles of leadership as God had him to write:
Isaiah 3:12 (New American Standard Bible)
Doctrines claiming women should be in roles of church leadership are wayward Westernized doctrines, that are not consistent with scripture.
February 8th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
thank you for your responses i appreciate you taking the time to answer.i must say they make a lot of sense and especially that you back it up with scripture, because that is and should be our final authority, and your answers have given me clarity on some issues.
i still believe though, that the elect lady refers to just that, the elect lady. i believe she might have not been a pastor or an elder and maybe not claimed any title, but she definately had the annointing to be elected to lead a church just like deborah.
but you still have not answered one of my questions.
the bible says in judges 4:4-5 that deborah was a leading israel, was holding court and dicided between the people’s disputes.
did God run out of men in israel that He had to go against His own words and will and elect and annoint a woman to LEAD israel, hold court and dicide between the disputes of the people? if it is such a sin then why did He do it? why did God not annoint deborah’s husband to lead israel? and there was also a million other men in israel i believe.
please dont say anything like deborah was only leading women and children.
i dont think just because deborah was a leader of israel she was not submissive to her husband. i dont see how serving God or being in a higher position than your husband stops a woman from being submissive to her husband.i dont think women who have purposed in their hearts to serve the Lord should always check their progress and make sure they dont do too much for God, incase they do better than their husbands. and what if their husbands are not really interested in serving God? why should women measure themselves or their work for God by their husbands or men?
are you saying you would not work for a company owned by a woman?
some women are not at all interested in titles, but just want to serve God.and if God sees their hearts and uses them are you as a man saying you would not let a woman lay hands on you if you needed prayer because you dont believe God can use a woman?
IndependentConservative reply on February 8th, 2009 at 6:54 pm :
JesusIsGod,
And using scripture to interpret scripture, what scriptures do you know of using the term “elect” as you’ve stated? Where in the Bible is the term “elect” used to cite a person “elected” to lead any church? Election is what all saints are. Deborah did not lead any church.
That’s not what it says, this is what it says.
Judges 4:4-5 (New American Standard Bible)
She sat under a tree and people went to her for judgment. The “leader” of Israel was always a king. The “anointed” ones in the old covenant were the kings, who were literally anointed with oil.
We’re not talking about women judging or a woman being a prophetess who says a word to someone in counsel. We’re talking about elders who are respected as figures of authority and teaching in the church. You have no scripture showing such for women in the church and a strict prohibition against such in 1 Timothy 2.
Notice, Deborah judged from under a tree, a very private sort of method, she did not do like male prophets such as Jonah who went passing judgment in the open streets.
You’re now trying to compare the secular with the church, there is no comparison. The Bible does not compare the church with a business.
My Bible instructs me to have prayer from the elders of the church in James 5. 1 Timothy 3 gives detailed instructions about who is to be an elder. If you can explain how a woman can be the husband of one wife, then claiming we should seek certain women to lay hands on us would have a biblical foundation.
February 9th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
my bible says in Judges 4:4-5 (New International Version)
Deborah a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. she held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Epraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided.
so according to my NIV, it is very clear that deborah was leading Israel.you have to remember that at this point israel had not been given a king, but was being ruled by judges. and this was before God annointed saul to be king. saul was the first king of israel and there has never been any king before him. it had always been judges before the children of israel asked God for a king because they wanted to be like other nations with kings.
so it is clear that at that particular time in israel deborah was leading israel.
IndependentConservative reply on February 9th, 2009 at 4:10 pm :
JesusIsGod – I would recommend you use a word for word literal translation rather than a summary translation such as the NIV.
But aside from the matter of translations, you’re repeatedly seeking justification for a point you’d like to make through Deborah. But you’re trying to slap an old covenant prophetess into the seat of new covenant church elder. At the point of 1 Timothy 2 your assertions to claim a woman can teach or be looked at as having any authority over a man in the church became moot. (And actually they were moot before that, but God had the apostle Paul remove all doubt and remove all debate debate in clear writing on the matter.) Further affirmed in 1 Timothy 3. The instruction was given from the apostle to the evangelist who was establishing churches. The same was given in Titus 1 to yet another evangelist by the apostle. You have the instructions from the Apostle to the Gentiles on how the church is to be organized. Lord help you embrace them.
Also, a prophet was not playing the role of high priest, Deborah was NOT a high priest. High priests under the old covenant were also anointed with oil like kings. Kings and high priests, Deborah was neither. But again, we’re talking about the church in this the new covenant, not how to decide who is an old covenant prophet. God’s word is clear and the instructions for church organization have been given to the church in scripture, as clearly written by the hand of the apostle by God’s inspiration. Husband of one wife, this is undeniable unless someone values their own opinion over what is in the Word of God.
Have you taken the time to fully review all the links I provided you in the very first response I made to you regarding this matter? It would be good if you do.
IndependentConservative reply on February 9th, 2009 at 4:18 pm :
JesusIsGod, 3 times I have gone back and forth with you on this matter. Stan has spoken to you once. Let your efforts to make debate over this end here. This blog and myself stand on what you’ve been told and it will remain so here. If that remains an issue for you, it’s time you find a place that embraces your opinion. But I’m not one to keep the same debate going for days and into weeks on end. This discussion has run its course and let it end here.