Peace….

I have been watching your debate/discussion and both of you make some very valid points. Please look at the following link. It is a John Piper sermon from back in 1987. It addresses just what you guys were discussing.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/45/604_What_Must_Happen_Before_the_Day_of_the_Lord/

Like Kingskid said, some things DO have to occur before the Lord returns.

However, like IC said, we need to be on watch and be ready for his return any minute. In this large world, the things (man of lawlessness and the apostasy) could be happening and we do not know it. We might have interpreted things incorrectly so we should always be on watch for the Day of the Lord.

We agree:

Mark 13:35-37 (New American Standard Bible)

35 “Therefore, be on the alert–for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning–

36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.

37 “What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”

If as you say “they held that Jesus could come at any time” then time bears witness to the fact that they are wrong.

They did not know the time and never claimed to. They remained ready at all times. As Jesus said and I’ve already shared with you.

Mark 13:35-37 (New American Standard Bible)

35 “Therefore, be on the alert–for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning–

36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.

37 “What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”

The Apostles spoke of coming events, while knowing He’d come soon, in a little while. And far more has taken place than during the times of the apostles. Which leaves a much wider door for something to have occurred as we might not have expected.

Now, “in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep” it is always best to “Be on the alert!”

Are you saying that because you’ve been taught a view of prophesy, that you just have to be right? You can have that view if you desire, I won’t take such a stance.

He gave his disciples (us) a series of events to watch out for as the prelude of the return of the King of kings and Lord of lords. This I have shown in the scripture references that I previously commented on.

And you feel you have perfect interpretation of the prophesy noted in scripture? I say we have an opinion of the prophesy and He will show that He has it all correct. We are to be alert and on watch, because we don’t know when He is coming. Even John said he was a partaker in tribulation, Revelation 1:9. I know we’d like to say we have end times calculations all correct, but while I look at that I remain ever on alert, because yes, the Lord could return at any moment. I leave the door open to my interpretation of a prophesy being off. So best to remain on alert as He commanded us to do.

Correct, the Bible says wasn’t for them to know, but it is for someone to know because it is all in there (the Bible).

KingsKid, I’m going to be perfectly frank with you here. I’ve seen my entire Christian walk, people conning saints on the end times calculations. Like you’re repeating from what you’ve been instructed, they teach you certain prophecies mean certain specific nations and events. Then 20 years or 100 years later as political winds change, they adjust their calculations. They do it over and over and have done so for probably thousands of years now. It is possible, that much of what you feel applies to prophesy in modern times may not be what actually occurs, or has even already occurred? It is possible you are incorrect? Even before the nation of Israel was around, there were people who had calculations that looked really good then and don’t today. For all we know, the Roadmap to Peace could have been the prophetic agreement. Israel has had red heifers for some time now. (By the way, the word is that they already have another, although they are keeping more hush about it after an embarrassing spot developed on the previous one noted in that report, which disqualified it.) I’m not going to act as if I know what they are doing with them and act as if I know they never creeped into their old rebuilt temple. So rather than wholly trust you or your teachers I’d prefer to do as the Lord commanded and remain on alert, in case He should return suddenly. Not that I don’t keep an eye on events, I do. Not that I don’t sound an alarm as certain events occur, I do. I’ve already noted where I feel we are in the context of Matthew 24. Others have said how they feel, each being careful to note it is THEIR OPINION. However, to dogmatically claim you know He just can’t come now is a mistake and assumption you’ve got it all figured out.

You tell me KingsKid, what is the issue with following Christ’s command to “Be on the alert”? What is the issue with accepting that He said “in case he should come suddenly”?

I’m not suggesting anything foolish, such as not paying debts or running around homeless. That fails to meet the teachings of being a good steward and always providing for your family. However, to act like the Lord’s return is so far in the future rather than could come suddenly at any moment could cause one of your brothers or sisters to be caught asleep when He does return.

We do agree that it appears certain events have not yet occurred, HOWEVER I remain open to the possibility that we have been mistaken and He might appear suddenly. And I keep that open reservation, because He suggested we remain on alert at all times, like the one at the door who does not know when His Master will return.

I think it is possible, even if our views of events to come are near correct, that even what we see still remaining to take place could occur in timing that is faster than we expect. I see it best to follow the Lord’s command to remain on alert!

Matthew 25:13 (New American Standard Bible)

13 “Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

I didn’t say it, He did.

Revelation 22:20 (New American Standard Bible)

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly ” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.

I pray He come quickly, not that He delay.

I think to a degree we do agree, but I don’t see my stance as dogmatically regarding my calculations as you seem to do with calculations you have been given.

Now, although we discuss this, at least we are not trying to assert preterism. Honestly, that is something I don’t even allow here at all. To me it really is another gospel, speaking against the coming of the Lord as we both agree is coming, not a past event. I do see preterism as a great heresy, and agree with the Hyper Preterism Renounced stance some other brothers and sisters in Christ have already taken.

That is something Melvin Jones allowed to be debated on his blog for a moment at The Preterists’ (Who Visit This Site) Best Shot. And he’s avoided it since. Honestly, nobody embracing preterism should even attempt to comment here. I’m not even go as far as to allow such comments, given how obviously wrong they are while assuming they are so right. Some things are simply not worth a debate.

If as you say “they held that Jesus could come at any time” then time bears witness to the fact that they are wrong. Jesus truly did say that NO one knows the day or the hour, however, He gave his disciples (us) a series of events to watch out for as the prelude of the return of the King of kings and Lord of lords. This I have shown in the scripture references that I previously commented on.

In Matthew 24:15 Jesus gives a specific set of events to watch for and a warning “(whoso readeth, let him understand:)”, then, :21 tribulation, then, :29 sun and moon darkened, stars fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shaken. Then and only then, :30 shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn.

Here are the scripture references if you are interested:

Matthew 24:15-16
Matthew 24:21-28
2Thessalonians 2:1-12
Matthew 24:29-30
Isaiah 34:1-4, 8
Revelation 6:12-17.

You quoted:
Acts 1: 6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Correct, the Bible says wasn’t for them to know, but it is for someone to know because it is all in there (the Bible).

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Peace

In all your scripture citing you missed some of the following:
Matthew 24:36-51
1 Thessalonians 5

Acts 1:6-7 (New American Standard Bible)

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Luke 12:35-48

James 5:8 (New American Standard Bible)

8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

Revelation 22:20 (New American Standard Bible)

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly ” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 3:10

You’ve cited scripture of coming apostasy, when we have plenty all around us. As I’ve said, I personally feel we are at the point of the beginning of birth pangs, but you should always be ready for the day YOU DO NOT KNOW.

You speak as if you think you know about when the Lord will return, but guess what, if you read what I’ve cited above you will have to accept the following:
Matthew 24:44 (New American Standard Bible)

44 “For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Why did Jesus tell THEM to be ready? Why didn’t He tell them thousands of years after they are physically dead? Even Jesus said He did not know the date himself, Matthew 24:36. Jesus told them to be ready. In saying anything less than soon to return you create an impression that runs counter to what Jesus prepared everyone for. A date we don’t know and should always be ready for, because He is coming when we do not expect it, Hebrews 10:37.

Romans 16:20 (New American Standard Bible)

20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Matthew 25:1-13, Jesus tells even them to be alert because they do not know the day of His return.

KingsKid our Lord commanded we BE ON ALERT FOR HIS COMING AT ALL TIMES.

Mark 13:32-37 (New American Standard Bible)

32 “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

33 “Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

34 “It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.

35 “Therefore, be on the alert–for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning–

36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.

37 “What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”

You should not take overly assured comfort in your own or someone else’s interpretation of the signs of the times. You don’t know the hour and you could find your interpretation, we could all find our interpretation of the Lord’s coming to be a bit off. So be ready at all times, you do not know the day or the hour and you might feel, we might feel some events are still to come, but the Lord might tell you tonight they already came in a manner you did not expect.

Jesus will not return at any moment, He cited a specific progression of events before His return.
First the “abomination of desolation” must stand in the Holy Place; sit in the temple of God, (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God), which means that a temple has to be built.
Matthew 24:15-27
Mark 13:14-23
2Thessalonians 2:3-12

Peace

I do believe our Lord could return at any moment. Of course if He comes tonight we’ll all be figuring out we were well beyond birth pangs now, but I figure he who remains ready at all times is doing best, Matthew 24:36-51.