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	<title>Comments on: The New Apostolic Reformation: some of its shapers and methods. They&#8217;re also targeting our youth.</title>
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	<description>The Independent Conservative saying what needs to be said!</description>
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		<title>By: georgefromalaska</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8294</link>
		<dc:creator>georgefromalaska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8294</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s call this movement of GOD the &quot;Catharsis&quot; movement.  Guess what the next &#039;movement&#039; will be. And as far as the &quot;trabsfer of wealth&quot; movement is concerned, that means &quot;transferred from you to him&quot;.  This is a typical communist/socialist/liberal/democrat proposal with God&#039;s name attached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s call this movement of GOD the &#8220;Catharsis&#8221; movement.  Guess what the next &#8216;movement&#8217; will be. And as far as the &#8220;trabsfer of wealth&#8221; movement is concerned, that means &#8220;transferred from you to him&#8221;.  This is a typical communist/socialist/liberal/democrat proposal with God&#8217;s name attached.</p>
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		<title>By: georgefromalaska</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8293</link>
		<dc:creator>georgefromalaska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8293</guid>
		<description>First it was &quot;Slaying in the SPirit&quot;.  Then it was &quot;hillarious laughing&quot;.  Now it&#039;s &quot;vomiting&quot;.  Ridiculous.  The only thing left is the other end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First it was &#8220;Slaying in the SPirit&#8221;.  Then it was &#8220;hillarious laughing&#8221;.  Now it&#8217;s &#8220;vomiting&#8221;.  Ridiculous.  The only thing left is the other end.</p>
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		<title>By: IndependentConservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8292</link>
		<dc:creator>IndependentConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8292</guid>
		<description>I never mentioned the &quot;vomit&quot; stuff here before because I really HOPED not many had been in such places.  That woman who jumped in her car and left before anyone could stop her did the right thing.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1544&amp;Version=kjv&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
Here is Strong&#039;s Greek Lexicon entry for the term &lt;b&gt;ekball?&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.  Nothing about vomit in the MANY uses of that term.  Even if it has some relation to the term &quot;vomit&quot; in some language, it does not justify that out of order vomiting nonsense.  It&#039;s totally made up with no honest foundation in scripture.  

Thank you for telling me how they twist scripture on that one. I need to keep that in mind if I encounter anyone that endorses vomiting.

The place I saw it done at on a regular basis used to at times preach about giving and you know, they made sure to mention that they didn&#039;t like talking about money and they claimed they didn&#039;t talk about money much.  But they made sure to claim that if you really want all that &quot;victory&quot; you&#039;ve got to give to them and give big!  While they played with all the nonsense about vomit, they made sure to come with a similar pimp game for dollars.  All the other activity is to ensure they&#039;ve got drones willing to do anything they say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never mentioned the &#8220;vomit&#8221; stuff here before because I really HOPED not many had been in such places.  That woman who jumped in her car and left before anyone could stop her did the right thing.</p>
<p><a href="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1544&amp;Version=kjv" rel="nofollow"><br />
Here is Strong&#8217;s Greek Lexicon entry for the term <b>ekball?</b></a>.  Nothing about vomit in the MANY uses of that term.  Even if it has some relation to the term &#8220;vomit&#8221; in some language, it does not justify that out of order vomiting nonsense.  It&#8217;s totally made up with no honest foundation in scripture.  </p>
<p>Thank you for telling me how they twist scripture on that one. I need to keep that in mind if I encounter anyone that endorses vomiting.</p>
<p>The place I saw it done at on a regular basis used to at times preach about giving and you know, they made sure to mention that they didn&#8217;t like talking about money and they claimed they didn&#8217;t talk about money much.  But they made sure to claim that if you really want all that &#8220;victory&#8221; you&#8217;ve got to give to them and give big!  While they played with all the nonsense about vomit, they made sure to come with a similar pimp game for dollars.  All the other activity is to ensure they&#8217;ve got drones willing to do anything they say.</p>
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		<title>By: avlight</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8290</link>
		<dc:creator>avlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8290</guid>
		<description>[quote]
Well I’ve been places where they keep sheets for that AND PLASTIC TRASHCANS TO CATCH VOMIT.
[/quote]

I saw a church in my town that practiced the vomiting. The first time I saw it, it freaked me out. In fact one person left in a hurry, which was justified as

&quot;She&#039;s got demons working inside of her, and those demons can&#039;t stand the presence of the Lord that they got her in control and they have deceived her to tell her to leave when her deliverance can come in her life now&quot;

and leadership told two ushers to go after her and try to talk her into coming back in. However, she had already got in her car and left.

After that statement, no one else dared to leave &#039;in fear&#039; of being &#039;singled out&#039; as &#039;one with demons&#039; until it was over and praise and worship began again.

In fact, i saw them open the cabinet they had that housed the offering plates, they had Scope mouthwash, Dixie bathroom cups for the Scope, and little quarter sized peppermint candies

-----

IC

In reference to the Bible Scripture these people use to justify vomiting as the sign of demon possession leaving, they use Mark 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They claim that the Greek word for &quot;cast out&quot; (which is ?????????  -  ekballo per Strongs Concordance) is from the exact same root as the Greek word for vomiting. Strongs says

to eject (literally or figuratively): - bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).

I also went here

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=greek&amp;lookup=vomit&amp;type=begin&amp;options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&amp;.submit=Do+Search

but didn&#039;t see any words even close to the greek word from Strongs.

I don&#039;t see the word &#039;vomit&#039; in that definition...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[quote]<br />
Well I’ve been places where they keep sheets for that AND PLASTIC TRASHCANS TO CATCH VOMIT.<br />
[/quote]</p>
<p>I saw a church in my town that practiced the vomiting. The first time I saw it, it freaked me out. In fact one person left in a hurry, which was justified as</p>
<p>&#8220;She&#8217;s got demons working inside of her, and those demons can&#8217;t stand the presence of the Lord that they got her in control and they have deceived her to tell her to leave when her deliverance can come in her life now&#8221;</p>
<p>and leadership told two ushers to go after her and try to talk her into coming back in. However, she had already got in her car and left.</p>
<p>After that statement, no one else dared to leave &#8216;in fear&#8217; of being &#8217;singled out&#8217; as &#8216;one with demons&#8217; until it was over and praise and worship began again.</p>
<p>In fact, i saw them open the cabinet they had that housed the offering plates, they had Scope mouthwash, Dixie bathroom cups for the Scope, and little quarter sized peppermint candies</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>IC</p>
<p>In reference to the Bible Scripture these people use to justify vomiting as the sign of demon possession leaving, they use Mark 16:17</p>
<p>And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;</p>
<p>They claim that the Greek word for &#8220;cast out&#8221; (which is ?????????  &#8211;  ekballo per Strongs Concordance) is from the exact same root as the Greek word for vomiting. Strongs says</p>
<p>to eject (literally or figuratively): &#8211; bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).</p>
<p>I also went here</p>
<p><a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=greek&amp;lookup=vomit&amp;type=begin&amp;options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&amp;.submit=Do+Search" rel="nofollow">http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=greek&amp;lookup=vomit&amp;type=begin&amp;options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&amp;.submit=Do+Search</a></p>
<p>but didn&#8217;t see any words even close to the greek word from Strongs.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the word &#8216;vomit&#8217; in that definition&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: IndependentConservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8289</link>
		<dc:creator>IndependentConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8289</guid>
		<description>We know even the apostles faced attack from messengers of Satan, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2012:7-10;&amp;version=49;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2 Corinthians 12:7-10&lt;/a&gt;.  Jesus was tempted by Satan.

So we being attacked by a demon is to be expected.  What is not supported is the notion that vomit helps to end such an attack or signifies the end of such an attack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We know even the apostles faced attack from messengers of Satan, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2012:7-10;&amp;version=49;" rel="nofollow">2 Corinthians 12:7-10</a>.  Jesus was tempted by Satan.</p>
<p>So we being attacked by a demon is to be expected.  What is not supported is the notion that vomit helps to end such an attack or signifies the end of such an attack.</p>
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		<title>By: art123</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8288</link>
		<dc:creator>art123</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8288</guid>
		<description>IC, I&#039;ve been there and seen it, mostly white sheets and tissues to catch it all.  I would agree that it could be puzzling if you&#039;re saved and be demon possessed.  How many agree that you can be saved and be attacked by demons without being possessed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IC, I&#8217;ve been there and seen it, mostly white sheets and tissues to catch it all.  I would agree that it could be puzzling if you&#8217;re saved and be demon possessed.  How many agree that you can be saved and be attacked by demons without being possessed?</p>
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		<title>By: IndependentConservative</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8286</link>
		<dc:creator>IndependentConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8286</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve known of places that many years before NAR came on the scene were into the &quot;vomit&quot; thing.  I mean people literally vomiting as Avlight mentioned.  Vomiting and it being claimed as some sort of sign, that demons were leaving a person, or they were getting a weight of demon oppression off of them.

Some spots would claim that Christians can be demon &quot;possessed&quot; which would make the work of the Holy Spirit of ZERO effect.  But they feel a Christian can be possessed and vomiting could be part of the process for someone to expel the demon.  Then there are others who realize it&#039;s nonsense to claim someone can be saved AND demon &quot;possessed&quot;, so they claimed the demonic &quot;oppression&quot; could be so bad that someone vomits in the process of getting over the demonic oppression, during a prayer or &quot;praise&quot; session &lt;em&gt;(praise as in totally out of order activity and prayer that featured babblings of ungodly tongues of no real language)&lt;/em&gt;.

Many of you reading this might have been at places where they keep sheets to cover women who fall out in the floor totally out of order.  Well I&#039;ve been places where they keep sheets for that &lt;b&gt;AND PLASTIC TRASHCANS TO CATCH VOMIT.&lt;/b&gt;

Yes, it&#039;s as disgusting as you can imagine if you&#039;ve never been in a place where such sick activity takes place.  No I never did it &lt;em&gt;(not the vomit although I am a former babbler)&lt;/em&gt; and no the vomiting never really made good sense to me.  I don&#039;t even know of them ever trying to use scripture to justify the vomit, but if anyone knows of any scripture twisted in that regard I&#039;d like to know what part of God&#039;s Word they abused to try and justify it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve known of places that many years before NAR came on the scene were into the &#8220;vomit&#8221; thing.  I mean people literally vomiting as Avlight mentioned.  Vomiting and it being claimed as some sort of sign, that demons were leaving a person, or they were getting a weight of demon oppression off of them.</p>
<p>Some spots would claim that Christians can be demon &#8220;possessed&#8221; which would make the work of the Holy Spirit of ZERO effect.  But they feel a Christian can be possessed and vomiting could be part of the process for someone to expel the demon.  Then there are others who realize it&#8217;s nonsense to claim someone can be saved AND demon &#8220;possessed&#8221;, so they claimed the demonic &#8220;oppression&#8221; could be so bad that someone vomits in the process of getting over the demonic oppression, during a prayer or &#8220;praise&#8221; session <em>(praise as in totally out of order activity and prayer that featured babblings of ungodly tongues of no real language)</em>.</p>
<p>Many of you reading this might have been at places where they keep sheets to cover women who fall out in the floor totally out of order.  Well I&#8217;ve been places where they keep sheets for that <b>AND PLASTIC TRASHCANS TO CATCH VOMIT.</b></p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s as disgusting as you can imagine if you&#8217;ve never been in a place where such sick activity takes place.  No I never did it <em>(not the vomit although I am a former babbler)</em> and no the vomiting never really made good sense to me.  I don&#8217;t even know of them ever trying to use scripture to justify the vomit, but if anyone knows of any scripture twisted in that regard I&#8217;d like to know what part of God&#8217;s Word they abused to try and justify it.</p>
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		<title>By: stan</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8285</link>
		<dc:creator>stan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8285</guid>
		<description>To Avlight: Thanks to God you are out of that mess. And, that is a great point you&#039;ve made. If SLSW works so well, why not in their own area, where the  headwaters of this teaching springs from?  Their miserable failure is only one among the many that attempt to overthrow the ruling spirits according to their  strange doctrines. Not only do their attempts at such usurpation fail; but also, they inherit God&#039;s judgment for thinking to tamper with those spirits He has set up personally over sinful mankind. Those spirits are not budging until God sends Jesus to earth accompanied by the angel with the great chain to imprison Satan in the abyss.

The lack of apostolic precedent for such activity proves that they have grossly misunderstood the application of such verses as Psalm 91:13; Luke 10:19; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:10 and many others. They have used the doubtful method of &quot;prooftexting&quot; 
to create this new and dangerous doctrine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Avlight: Thanks to God you are out of that mess. And, that is a great point you&#8217;ve made. If SLSW works so well, why not in their own area, where the  headwaters of this teaching springs from?  Their miserable failure is only one among the many that attempt to overthrow the ruling spirits according to their  strange doctrines. Not only do their attempts at such usurpation fail; but also, they inherit God&#8217;s judgment for thinking to tamper with those spirits He has set up personally over sinful mankind. Those spirits are not budging until God sends Jesus to earth accompanied by the angel with the great chain to imprison Satan in the abyss.</p>
<p>The lack of apostolic precedent for such activity proves that they have grossly misunderstood the application of such verses as Psalm 91:13; Luke 10:19; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:10 and many others. They have used the doubtful method of &#8220;prooftexting&#8221;<br />
to create this new and dangerous doctrine.</p>
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		<title>By: avlight</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8275</link>
		<dc:creator>avlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8275</guid>
		<description>Eight years ago, I left a church that after the Toronto Blessing manifestations was ended by leadership, fell sway to both the craziness of the Elijah List and the NAR to the point where leadership was going out to Colorado Springs to their seminars and conferences.

They decided to start implementing &quot;SLSW&quot; and had a meeting at church one night with a city map subdivided into zones and &#039;names of spirits&#039; over certain neighborhoods (the wealthiest neighborhood with streetnames named after Confederate War Generals wasn&#039;t even marked up - HMMM) and a battle plan.

Many objectors asked their questions to be answered with more questions until I got to ask mine which consisted of:

We have this global warfare center in Colorado Springs, Colorado telling us how to spiritually map, what territirial spirit is present over what city, and how to fight the territorial spirit. In Colorado Springs, there is a park called &quot;Garden of The Gods&quot;. A name that promotes polytheistic beliefs. If the spiritual mapping belief currently taught that one of the numerous ways in order to break a spirit&#039;s hold on a city is to change names of landmarks, parks, streets, etc. is true, then why has this name of this park not been changed?

The global warfare center is approximately an hour&#039;s drive from Littleton, Colorado via Interstate 25 now famous for the Columbine High School tragedy. If this mapping concept worked, why did it not work in the global warfare center&#039;s own backyard to change a name of a city park to cast out a &quot;evil spirit&quot; and prevent this tragedy called Columbine from happening? You may say that &quot;it&#039;s 60 miles away and therefore not in our backyard&quot;. However, since this is the home of the &quot;global warfare center&quot;, one must look at geography from a global sense. Therefore, in the global sense of the earth is 25,000 miles in diameter, 60 miles is equivalent to being in the backyard when viewed in the bigger scale. 

THe answer given to me was &quot;The Supreme Court took prayer out of the public schools...&quot; Next question..

I knew then the church was headed into apostacy and aberrant doctrine and made my exit two months later after I found a reformed church to attend. Now today, this church I once attended has gone deep into NAR, IHOP, SLSW, and quarterly hosts some of the latest celebrities and &#039;prophet&#039; from the Elijah List. I have been told that at my former church, there is an extreme sub-group faction within their ranks now teaching that Christians can be demon possessed and exorcism is &#039;verified&#039; when people &#039;vomit&#039; after a warfare prayer session.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eight years ago, I left a church that after the Toronto Blessing manifestations was ended by leadership, fell sway to both the craziness of the Elijah List and the NAR to the point where leadership was going out to Colorado Springs to their seminars and conferences.</p>
<p>They decided to start implementing &#8220;SLSW&#8221; and had a meeting at church one night with a city map subdivided into zones and &#8216;names of spirits&#8217; over certain neighborhoods (the wealthiest neighborhood with streetnames named after Confederate War Generals wasn&#8217;t even marked up &#8211; HMMM) and a battle plan.</p>
<p>Many objectors asked their questions to be answered with more questions until I got to ask mine which consisted of:</p>
<p>We have this global warfare center in Colorado Springs, Colorado telling us how to spiritually map, what territirial spirit is present over what city, and how to fight the territorial spirit. In Colorado Springs, there is a park called &#8220;Garden of The Gods&#8221;. A name that promotes polytheistic beliefs. If the spiritual mapping belief currently taught that one of the numerous ways in order to break a spirit&#8217;s hold on a city is to change names of landmarks, parks, streets, etc. is true, then why has this name of this park not been changed?</p>
<p>The global warfare center is approximately an hour&#8217;s drive from Littleton, Colorado via Interstate 25 now famous for the Columbine High School tragedy. If this mapping concept worked, why did it not work in the global warfare center&#8217;s own backyard to change a name of a city park to cast out a &#8220;evil spirit&#8221; and prevent this tragedy called Columbine from happening? You may say that &#8220;it&#8217;s 60 miles away and therefore not in our backyard&#8221;. However, since this is the home of the &#8220;global warfare center&#8221;, one must look at geography from a global sense. Therefore, in the global sense of the earth is 25,000 miles in diameter, 60 miles is equivalent to being in the backyard when viewed in the bigger scale. </p>
<p>THe answer given to me was &#8220;The Supreme Court took prayer out of the public schools&#8230;&#8221; Next question..</p>
<p>I knew then the church was headed into apostacy and aberrant doctrine and made my exit two months later after I found a reformed church to attend. Now today, this church I once attended has gone deep into NAR, IHOP, SLSW, and quarterly hosts some of the latest celebrities and &#8216;prophet&#8217; from the Elijah List. I have been told that at my former church, there is an extreme sub-group faction within their ranks now teaching that Christians can be demon possessed and exorcism is &#8216;verified&#8217; when people &#8216;vomit&#8217; after a warfare prayer session.</p>
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		<title>By: daughter</title>
		<link>http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/comment-page-1/#comment-8271</link>
		<dc:creator>daughter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/15/new_apostolic_reformation/#comment-8271</guid>
		<description>My husband and I got a great DVD set from deceptioninthechurch.com about the NAR, it&#039;s an excellent resource. Whilst nutty, the likes of C Peter Wagner are insidious and their tentacles are far reaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband and I got a great DVD set from deceptioninthechurch.com about the NAR, it&#8217;s an excellent resource. Whilst nutty, the likes of C Peter Wagner are insidious and their tentacles are far reaching.</p>
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