“Old wineskins were once good, but God’s new wine requires new wineskins. Global Harvest has an important role in helping to form and develop new wineskins.” (C. Peter Wagner)
This “new wineskin” is The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The term was coined by C. (Charles) Peter Wagner for the fastest growing phenomenon in modern church growth he says he has been witnessing around the world since the 1990s. The wineskins refer to the features and structure of these new apostolic churches. Read Wagner’s own words about his discoveries and conclusions in his outline of his 1998 book “The New Apostolic Churches”.
Wagner tells us how he became an apostle:
“I gradually came to the realization that God had given me the gift of apostle, and that certain spheres of the body of Christ were recognizing that I had the office of apostle as well.” (source)
This is news, that apostles were gradually told by God about their office. I cannot think of any New Testament apostle who realized it gradually.
Wagner defines modern apostles for us:
“An apostle is a Christian leader gifted, taught, commissioned, and sent by God with the authority to establish the foundational government of the church within an assigned sphere of ministry by hearing what the Spirit is saying to the churches and by setting things in order accordingly for the growth and maturity of the church.”
So, these modern apostles think they have the right to establish foundational government. Apostles are defined by Paul as being foundations, but Wagner changes the noun “foundation” to an adjective and makes a new noun for them “government.” This switch is meaningful. Government speaks of rulership as well as leadership. Since the original apostles founded the church on their doctrine, in what way are these new ones foundational? Just how far do these apostles plan to go in their “rulership?”
“There are three biblical characteristics of apostles which some include in their definition of apostle, but which I have chosen not to include: (1) signs and wonders (2 Cor. 12:12), (2) seeing Jesus personally (1 Cor. 9:1), and (3) planting churches (1 Cor. 3:10). My reason for this is that I do not understand these three qualities to be non-negotiables. They characterize many, perhaps most, apostles. But if a given individual lacks the anointing for one or more of them, this, in my opinion, would not exclude that individual from being a legitimate apostle.” (source)
Here, we see Wagner appropriating the title, but unapologetically stripping it of its biblical definitions. All words have meaning, and as Wagner point out, “Jesus Himself was the one who coined the new term “apostle,” (Luke 6:13).” Wagner doesn’t mind wresting this word away from Jesus’ original use and investing it with a new one. I believe they want the title to wield the influence it carries upon those they wish to control.
Wagner left out a crucial point about apostles: That an apostle was an eyewitness of the Resurrection of the Christ. This alone disqualifies any modern minister from taking the title. In Paul’s own words, when speaking of the eyewitnesses, he says “And last of all, he appeared to me.” 1 Corinthians 15:8. “Last of all” means “last of all.” There are no more to come. Even if one argues that Paul wasn’t technically an eyewitness at the time of the resurrection, he knows that Paul lived concurrently with those who were. That made them able to confirm that the One who gave Paul his revelations and call was the exact same Christ they knew. But, which of the original apostles are left to do that for Wagner et al.? These modern apostles have no more right to the title than I have to the throne of England.
The Church received ALL of its doctrine from the original apostles. We are now to contend for it. The apostles did not set up successive apostles. They entrusted their teaching to faithful men whom they appointed as elders. Just as the priests who carried the Ark had no right to alter its design or even to touch it; we are to ensure that the apostle’s teaching we carry to the nations is the one that was once and for all delivered to the saints. What Wagner and the rest of them are doing by taking this office is laying foundations of new teachings. This can lead the unsuspecting believers astray from the gospel of the original apostles. This is what makes their work dangerous and why we must mark them so as to avoid them.
Wagner runs a number of apostolic venues: Global Harvest Ministries
and Wagner Leadership Institute.
He is chief apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles and the Apostolic Council of Apostolic Elders.
Other important names among them are Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets, Bill Hamon, Cindy Jacobs, Mark Chironna, Che Ahn.
Their new teachings are very disturbing. One that bothers me the most is Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare (SLSW) and Spiritual mapping. This is an elaborate scheme that ostensibly identifies, then overthrows territorial spirits that are over cities and nations. These spirits are believed to be obstacles to revival. They must be removed first through a variety of inventive methods such as: Prophetic revelation, intercession and birthing, shofar blowing, flag and banner waving, prophetic decreeing, praise warfare, worship warfare, identificational repentance, pleading the blood, praying in tongues (supposedly to confuse the devil), Jericho/prayer marches.
Also, Spiritual Mapping includes careful studies of an area’s history, to identify historical and current sinful trends in a community targeted for revival. Once identified, the sins are addressed specifically in intercession. Then, identificational repentance is enacted; meaning that the intercessors repent of those sins on behalf of the city or nation they’re praying for. This, then, makes way for calling down the ruling Satanic spirits in order to break their right to reign. You can find this outline in “Posssessing The Gates Of The Enemy” by Cindy Jacobs, page 34.
Too bad the apostles of the Lord were unaware of these marvelous techniques. Athens would not have been left an idolatrous city if Paul had only “mapped” it successfully with some of his intercessory team. Yet, not even Jesus took on the ruling spirit over Jerusalem or over Rome; nor did the Resurrected Lord advise the Pergamum church to unseat Satan from the throne he had in their city. Apparently, John the Baptist was unaware that he could have unseated the principality that ruled Herod instead of calling him an adulterer. He probably could have saved himself his own head if he had first read Peter Wagner or Cindy Jacobs’ books. In fact, no apostle ever taught and practiced such things that these people teach.
It is one thing to pray for all men, but it is quite another to attempt to free them from the snare of the devil they are caught in because of their sins. According to 2 Timothy 2:24-26 repentance unto the truth must be granted by God, then one recovers himself from the devil’s snare. No spiritual warfare technique can replace the obligation of the human heart to humble itself in brokenness and fear before a holy God. For all the fanfare and propaganda, this brand of spiritual warfare is just a lot of “sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
To me, the most disturbing element of this movement is the targeting of youth. For example, many young people attend The Call, run by Lou Engle. Lou is affiliated with the new apostles and prophets.
The Call are large events which are intense periods of concentrated prayer and fasting for the nation. Unfortunately, these otherwise biblically-sounding activities are mixed with many of the spiritual warfare tactics stated above. The physical activity that these methods call for and the emotional excitement that they induce are more than enough to hook idealistic and energetic young people. To blend youthful energy with “Revival” is one way to ensure that they are totally caught up in the paradigm for the rest of their lives. Unless the Lord helps them, they won’t realize their frenetic efforts and lung power have not the slightest effect on dislodging ruling spirits from their thrones. On their own, youth have no way to see through these methods or to filter out the error they are laced with.
Witness for yourself the pandemonium of “worship” and “Shofar Calls to repentance and warfare” at The Call at Nashville in July 2007. Try to hear what the speaker says before the shofars sound. He was identified in a comment as Ray Hughes of Morningstar (Rick Joyner’s ministry). Ricky Skaggs initiates the long blast that follows. Listen to the continuous and overpowering rhythmic drums and shofar cacophony. I suggest you turn down your computer’s speakers to low. See if you think this is derived from rightly dividing the New Testament’s Apostolic doctrine.
The Call 07.07.07 – Shofar
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January 15th, 2008 at 6:20 am
And I thought I was the only one that saw The Call to be a huge problem. Lou Engle and Co. are corrupting the minds of young people all over the place. It’s the Bible that we need, not useless shofar blowing!!!!!!!
stan reply on January 15th, 2008 at 12:01 pm :
The lack of care in dividing the Word has led many of the Charismatic churches to adopt Old Testament artifacts in an arbitrary manner. You can tell from this video, it must be a booming (sorry for the pun) business.
Paul, who best outlined how the Gentile believer was to be grafted in to the Jewish tree, never taught them such things. So, since these theories and practices are going on in the churches, who’s authorizing them? Answer: The new apostles, that’s who! The ones who are not eyewitnesses of the Christ’s resurrection. Therefore, their work can only lead away, not toward, the true apostolic faith.
January 15th, 2008 at 8:03 am
“They must be removed first through a variety of inventive methods such as: Prophetic revelation, intercession and birthing, shofar blowing, flag and banner waving, prophetic decreeing, praise warfare, worship warfare, identificational repentance, pleading the blood, praying in tongues (supposedly to confuse the devil), Jericho/prayer marches.”
Wow, what an impressive list of….nothing. Uhhh, I wonder when they will add living righteously to the list. Submit yourself to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.
January 15th, 2008 at 11:46 am
New apostolic faith or voodoo ritual? I thought the office of apostleship is closed?
stan reply on January 15th, 2008 at 12:41 pm :
Absolutely closed. You can’t replace an eyewitness. That is why these “new” ones have no right to take the title to themselves. Believers need to beware of them and give them a wide berth.
January 15th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
DING! Word of Faith movement, MOVE OVER!!! There’s a new heresy in town!
January 15th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Kyle, interesting that you should comment “move over”. A word that is foundational to the NAR is synergy, the idea of taking two or more things to create a greater effect than would the the individual thing by itself. The WoF movement is one influence that is used heavily in the NAR. I liken the NAR to the Blob. It grows bigger and bigger as it engulfs more people.
January 15th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Thanks IC & Stan for posting this. I attended a NAR church for about 5 years under a female “apostle” . All of the big names in this movement were frequent guests. The excitement is what draws you in and if you don’t read your bible, keeps you there entrenched in its vain philosophies and bondage.
Following the word as it is written was to be labeled a legalist or a Jezebel (if you spoke against the authority of leadership). I too found that there seemed (emphasis on seemed) to be a reverence for God’s word, but there was no study or correct exposition of the word. There is too much reverence for the leadership instead. It seemed so cultic.
There was also
The issue of people waiting with crazed anticipation to be ordained a prophet or an apostle by the leadership.
Classes that teach you how to be a prophet,
saying things like God is obligated to do what we say if we are speaking His word,
holy laughter,
and lots of other looney toon antics.
Oh, and woe to you if you leave…because you set yourself up for demonic attack due to the lack of an anointed covering. As if the blood of the LAMB is not sufficient.
okay, I’m done
)
stan reply on January 15th, 2008 at 8:29 pm :
You’re welcome, Pookie. I am glad you were able to escape it. My exposure is nowhere near yours. I had run across it at my former church years ago mostly with Dutch Sheets videos. At first, I liked him. I was impressed with his demeanor, testimonies and exegesis. There were things he said, though, that bothered me; but at the time I let them go. Back then, I was unaware of his connection to the NAR. Even if he ever stated it, it went over my head. Dutch Sheets comes across as confident and articulate. His relaxed manner is disarming.
Yet, his delusional notions show through in his prophecies. For example, in his 2006 prophecy, http://www.dutchsheets.org/index.cfm/pageid/266
we find such quotes as, “Opposition to the apostolic and prophetic will also be the greatest this year.”
He is going to expose wineskins (new or old), and religious spirits, taking off the masks of those who oppose His move. Those who refuse to move in current truth will begin to openly criticize leaders in the Body of Christ that are moving in the flow of the apostolic and the prophetic. Some have been doing so in a very subtle way but this year it will become obvious. When they do, God is going to begin to judge them.
What blatantly abusive words these are. God never said such things and it doesn’t take a prophet to know this. These people are the ones who are attempting the takeover of the church. The ones who are contending for the faith once delivered to the saints are targeted by this group as Pharisees and legalists, etc. They say that, but they can’t prove it, nor can they prove their own doctrine without misusing the scriptures.
“The great transfer of wealth begins this year.”
Oh, yeah? Did you get yours? I don’t know of anyone who did. Just what does Sheets mean by “The GREAT transfer of wealth?” There is no such thing predicted for the saints in this age. That will happen when Jesus returns and the meek inherit the earth.
Dutch Sheets is obsessed with this so-called Transfer of Wealth. Here, he goes on about it at the end of this video, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w66SGi7-TbQ
Unfortunately, you have to wait until 19 minutes into it, when it begins. There, he prophecies again about the transfer of wealth that he asserts must happen; otherwise, the covenant of God spoken of in Deut. 8 will not be established and the harvest will not occur!
Unbelievably delusional.
nlspears reply on January 16th, 2008 at 9:04 am :
Wow Pookie,
I live in Michigan too. Your situation sound completely identical to the church I just left. I was one of the Assistant Pastors to this female “Bishop”. The people seemed to worship her. She would always talk about spiritual warfare and how she was a “Queen Knight” and it up levels and levels in the spirit realm. She would talk about how she would be fighting demons at night and them throwing her around. She even stated she was an Apostle and Prophet and that Jesus visited her occasionally. Unfortunately, I acutally believed this stuff, but always questioned it. It wasn’t until I stood up and set up a meeting to question her teachings that I was implicitially ousted by the other leadership and her. I took my family and we left. I hate that I spent 8 years of my life at that church.
I hope we aren’t talking about the same church.
January 15th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
That would be a negative on the transfer of wealth to my bank account…please, I live in Michigan..the worst unemployment rate in the nation!
stan reply on January 15th, 2008 at 10:38 pm :
I heard that the other day. May the Lord bless and keep you. I have a very good friend who lives there. I live in New Jersey.
Here is a “word” from Dutch for Michigan from 2004 that he and Chuck Pierce gave on their 50 state tour.
Most states get a good Word, some states have gotten a hard Word. I don’t like to give those. We were flying into Michigan and I said, “Lord what do you want to say to Michigan?” and He said, “Tell Michigan they’ve lost their voice.” And I said, “Lord, let Chuck tell them they have lost their voice. And I will come up and teach on being a voice again – or something nice.” He said, “Tell them they gave it away and then preach on reclaiming your voice.” I said, “Lord, I don’t have a message on that.” This was early in the tour, thinking that the Lord would allow me to do something else and He said essentially, “You better get busy.” Because I was up in the plane, I was up in about two hours and I was basically heading straight to the service.
So I just put together whatever I could come up with on reclaiming your voice. Told them you’ve lost your voice, gave it away, don’t know how this happened. God hasn’t told me anything else. Then preached on reclaiming your voice.
Chuck came up after the message and said he had been conferring with some of the leaders there while I was speaking, and said, “We know when Michigan lost its voice. Twenty years ago the Mayor of Detroit gave Suddam Hussein the keys to the city.” And, that whether people understand it or not, you can make a mess out of ignorance. Just because you don’t know what you are doing, sometimes you can still be doing some things, some times, that can have incredible, broad ramifications and that Spirit of Babylon that is behind Islam was invited in and so, it wouldn’t probably surprise most of you that the highest population of Muslims in America live right there. In fact, to find a higher number of Muslims living in one region, you have to go to another Nation. It is the highest population of Muslims in anywhere in the world that is not its own Nation. Deerborn, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit.
You might have heard in the news not that long ago that they are fighting now this war over broadcasting prayers either five or seven times a day over the loud speakers into the community – the calls to prayer. So it’s a war, but the Lord said to us, “Now begin to take back that authority in this meeting.” This is what the 50 State Meeting for Michigan was. Take back that key of authority and move this place back into covenant with the Lord. The interesting thing was that it was the very night, the night that I preached that sermon, that God spoke that and then we started that process, was the very night that our troops surrounded Baghdad and went in the next day and took that city.
So, while they were doing it in the natural, we were doing it in the Spirit. You could never convince us in a hundred years that that was a coincidence. And Michigan is making great, great strides. There is almost as much breakthrough happening in Michigan, maybe more than in any other State.
I will be there in August and we are going to going to Pontiac Stadium in August to fill that stadium up with believers. I am not initiating, I am just going to be a part of it. There is an African American Bishop that is heading this up and God has spoken to him to bring the body of Christ together and there is a great healing that is taking place and so there are white believers with African American believers and we are just going to go and pick a fight with the devil. And Chuck and I are going back in September or October to do another meeting. It has just been amazing what the Lord has done.
It starts about a third of the way down this page.
http://www.springsoflivingwater.org/Chuck%20Peirce.html
pookie reply on January 16th, 2008 at 2:19 am :
Thanks for the prayer, Stan…The event you are probably referring to is Bishop Merritt’s (Straight Gate International) One in Worship…I take it you didn’t catch it live on TBN?
)
stan reply on January 16th, 2008 at 9:18 pm :
You’re welcome, Pookie. I did not know it was on TBN; but back then (2004), I was not aware of this problem as I am now. I’d watch the video if it was available though, just for the research.
January 16th, 2008 at 2:03 am
Nice post fellas!! As for “New Apostles”, unless I’m mistaken the Apostles are called the foundation of the church. Oh,BTW………there are 12 foundations to the New Jerusalem identified in Revelation.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Maybe God just hasn’t finished adding foundations to accommodate all these “new” Apostles?? Errrrr…..NO.
stan reply on January 16th, 2008 at 5:42 pm :
Thanks Gary. It’s amazing how many there are any more. I have found a lot of “apostles” preaching and carrying on, on Youtube. It’s like they’re multiplying like rabbits. And, everybody is “apostolic” this and “apostolic” that.
Here is a dizzying list of different species of them taken from Wagners’ website:
Vertical Apostles
* Ecclesiastical apostles. Apostles who are given authority over a sphere which includes a number of churches, presumably in an apostolic network headed up by the apostle.
* Functional apostles. Apostles who are given authority over those who have an ongoing ministry in a certain specific sphere of service which has defined boundaries of participation.
* Apostolic Team Members. Apostles whose apostolic ministry functions in conjunction with an apostle who is seen as the leader of a team of one or more other peer-level vertical apostles. They may be assigned specific spheres by the leading apostle. These are more than administrators or assistants or armor-bearers.
* Congregational apostles. Apostles functioning as senior pastors of dynamic, growing churches of more than 700-800.
Horizontal Apostles
* Convening apostles. Apostles who have authority to call together on a regular basis peer-level leaders who minister in a defined field.
* Ambassadorial apostles. Apostles who have itinerant, frequently international, ministries of catalyzing and nurturing apostolic movements on a broad scale.
* Mobilizing apostles. Apostles who have the authority to take leadership in bringing together qualified leaders in the body of Christ for a specific cause or project.
* Territorial apostles. Apostles who have been given authority for leading a certain segment of the body of Christ in a given territorial sphere such as a city or state.
http://www.globalharvest.org/index.asp?action=spheres
Unbelievable, huh?
Praiser4Life reply on January 16th, 2008 at 7:07 pm :
WT?! And where in the bible do you find these?!
January 16th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
WOW! My head is spinning from all those “appostle” definitions….
January 17th, 2008 at 1:23 am
STAN is the MAN. He has hit the nail on the head, as usual. If God wanted more “apostles”, He would have said so. He understood the power they would have when He ordained them as described in John 17:18 Jesus praying: “Just as you have sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world”.(AMP)He wasn’t about to diminish the commission and the power among half-wit, self indulging, pontificating charlatans, and Stan has “nailed it”. Very well done piece, well researched and accurate. You da man, Stan!!!
Back in 1980 I was one of two elders in a vibrant Christian Fellowship. I was Charismatic and the other elder wasn’t. I prayed for people and God answered. He prayed for people and nothing happened. After quite a while of this, he decided that we had both come to our offices by election of the congregation(which wasn’t God’s will) and that the way to have God in it was to call 4 “apostles” from New York State that he had located somehow. He asked them to visit our Fellowship and explain why we were out of God’s will and how they, as “apostles” could make it right. I opposed this but rather than split the church, I allowed them to come. Of course, these “apostles” weren’t charismatic, or even evangellical. They were a team of “hit men” out to snare another “tithing” fellowship to their control. When I saw what was happening, I opposed them. They had convinced several of the under-officers that I was “in disorder” and had to go. I resisted, but at at meeting of two of the “apostles”, the other elder, and two of the under-officers(I don’t know what else to call them), they figuratively threw me out of my own church that I helped start. The lead elder threatened me, that if I tried to come against them, that he “would GET ME from the pulpit”. That sounded pretty apostolic to me, but then I had never met an “apostle” before.
The thing I feared happened. There was discontent and deep division among the members who remained. All those who I had prayed for and had had their prayers answered, and even some of those who didn’t get their prayers answered, were totally confused. The church died within a little over a year. There were about 150 members before I was excommunicated, and about 60 remained after that. With Ichabod written on the church door, the fellowship finally died. The “elder” joined another fellowship and managed to take a few with him, but the overwhelming majority split, some never to return to chruch again. Others had to join with another fellowship.
I actually feel sorry for the people who are so ungrounded that they could possibly think that parading in wild fashion, holding and blowing a Ram’s horn is spiritual and will bring the Holy Spirit into the room is a tragedy. I am afraid that they have actually brought the other spirit into their midst. But, I am especially sorry for the leaders who will someday have to account to God for leading these people into the kingdom of Satan. God have mercy on them.
As I said earlier, If God wanted more real Apostles, He would have made it clear to all of us in His Word. There is confusion over the issue because of several verses but especially 1 COR 12:28 using the same Greek word to identify these with the original11 plus Paul. Since there is confusion there should be a way to “test” the alleged apostle. Bscally the word is “someone who is sent out”, which coincides with John 17:18 cited above, but must also coincide with John 17:22 & 23 which says we are to be ONE with each other. MATT 7:16-20 which He uses metaphorically to represent the quality of a fig, tells us that we are to be judged by our fruit. The fig tree that didn’t produce, he destroyed. I could teach a sermon on the subject, but the principle is clear. He who doesn’t produce as advertised, will be cut down. Whether that means literally or figuratively is for Him to decide.
I could go on forever about this ridiculous exhibition of demon worship. However, I will not be the Judge, and I certainly will not participate. Lord have mercy!!
stan reply on January 18th, 2008 at 12:48 pm :
Hi George. Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks also for sharing your personal experience with those wolves who tore the fellowship to pieces. What devastation these people are capable of! What an easy inroad they have into so many unwary churches. No wonder Paul said what he did to the Ephesian elders as he was leaving. He was in tears over this problem; but today, these so-called apostles are not only tolerated, they are welcomed in and granted full access to work their misery. As I said in my post up top: There is only one reason for someone to take the title “apostle” – to take control of God’s people.
God help them all awake to righteousness and stop sinning, both the perps and their enablers – the leaders of local churches.
January 17th, 2008 at 10:57 am
I am sure most of you have heard of this saying in church “God is going to do a new thing”. Yeah, He said it in Revelations 21:5, but did He said it to hire new recruits for apostleship? Not so.
stan reply on January 18th, 2008 at 1:58 pm :
This “New Thing,” quoted from Isaiah 43:19 and Jeremiah 31:22 is a motto of the modern false teachers that are foisting their errors on today’s churches. Under this phrase, nearly anything goes. And their leadership are not staying alert to what is being introduced to their own churches under this mantra.
God also uses the expression “strange work” and “strange act” in Isaiah 28 about His judgment to come. Yet, you can see how those expressions can be glommed onto by these modern teachers to introduce to the church anything which is really strange and foreign to the true apostolic doctrine of the NT.
January 25th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
My husband and I got a great DVD set from deceptioninthechurch.com about the NAR, it’s an excellent resource. Whilst nutty, the likes of C Peter Wagner are insidious and their tentacles are far reaching.
January 26th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Eight years ago, I left a church that after the Toronto Blessing manifestations was ended by leadership, fell sway to both the craziness of the Elijah List and the NAR to the point where leadership was going out to Colorado Springs to their seminars and conferences.
They decided to start implementing “SLSW” and had a meeting at church one night with a city map subdivided into zones and ‘names of spirits’ over certain neighborhoods (the wealthiest neighborhood with streetnames named after Confederate War Generals wasn’t even marked up – HMMM) and a battle plan.
Many objectors asked their questions to be answered with more questions until I got to ask mine which consisted of:
We have this global warfare center in Colorado Springs, Colorado telling us how to spiritually map, what territirial spirit is present over what city, and how to fight the territorial spirit. In Colorado Springs, there is a park called “Garden of The Gods”. A name that promotes polytheistic beliefs. If the spiritual mapping belief currently taught that one of the numerous ways in order to break a spirit’s hold on a city is to change names of landmarks, parks, streets, etc. is true, then why has this name of this park not been changed?
The global warfare center is approximately an hour’s drive from Littleton, Colorado via Interstate 25 now famous for the Columbine High School tragedy. If this mapping concept worked, why did it not work in the global warfare center’s own backyard to change a name of a city park to cast out a “evil spirit” and prevent this tragedy called Columbine from happening? You may say that “it’s 60 miles away and therefore not in our backyard”. However, since this is the home of the “global warfare center”, one must look at geography from a global sense. Therefore, in the global sense of the earth is 25,000 miles in diameter, 60 miles is equivalent to being in the backyard when viewed in the bigger scale.
THe answer given to me was “The Supreme Court took prayer out of the public schools…” Next question..
I knew then the church was headed into apostacy and aberrant doctrine and made my exit two months later after I found a reformed church to attend. Now today, this church I once attended has gone deep into NAR, IHOP, SLSW, and quarterly hosts some of the latest celebrities and ‘prophet’ from the Elijah List. I have been told that at my former church, there is an extreme sub-group faction within their ranks now teaching that Christians can be demon possessed and exorcism is ‘verified’ when people ‘vomit’ after a warfare prayer session.
stan reply on January 28th, 2008 at 4:36 pm :
To Avlight: Thanks to God you are out of that mess. And, that is a great point you’ve made. If SLSW works so well, why not in their own area, where the headwaters of this teaching springs from? Their miserable failure is only one among the many that attempt to overthrow the ruling spirits according to their strange doctrines. Not only do their attempts at such usurpation fail; but also, they inherit God’s judgment for thinking to tamper with those spirits He has set up personally over sinful mankind. Those spirits are not budging until God sends Jesus to earth accompanied by the angel with the great chain to imprison Satan in the abyss.
The lack of apostolic precedent for such activity proves that they have grossly misunderstood the application of such verses as Psalm 91:13; Luke 10:19; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:10 and many others. They have used the doubtful method of “prooftexting”
to create this new and dangerous doctrine.
IndependentConservative reply on January 28th, 2008 at 5:19 pm :
I’ve known of places that many years before NAR came on the scene were into the “vomit” thing. I mean people literally vomiting as Avlight mentioned. Vomiting and it being claimed as some sort of sign, that demons were leaving a person, or they were getting a weight of demon oppression off of them.
Some spots would claim that Christians can be demon “possessed” which would make the work of the Holy Spirit of ZERO effect. But they feel a Christian can be possessed and vomiting could be part of the process for someone to expel the demon. Then there are others who realize it’s nonsense to claim someone can be saved AND demon “possessed”, so they claimed the demonic “oppression” could be so bad that someone vomits in the process of getting over the demonic oppression, during a prayer or “praise” session (praise as in totally out of order activity and prayer that featured babblings of ungodly tongues of no real language).
Many of you reading this might have been at places where they keep sheets to cover women who fall out in the floor totally out of order. Well I’ve been places where they keep sheets for that AND PLASTIC TRASHCANS TO CATCH VOMIT.
Yes, it’s as disgusting as you can imagine if you’ve never been in a place where such sick activity takes place. No I never did it (not the vomit although I am a former babbler) and no the vomiting never really made good sense to me. I don’t even know of them ever trying to use scripture to justify the vomit, but if anyone knows of any scripture twisted in that regard I’d like to know what part of God’s Word they abused to try and justify it.
January 28th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
IC, I’ve been there and seen it, mostly white sheets and tissues to catch it all. I would agree that it could be puzzling if you’re saved and be demon possessed. How many agree that you can be saved and be attacked by demons without being possessed?
IndependentConservative reply on January 28th, 2008 at 7:30 pm :
We know even the apostles faced attack from messengers of Satan, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10. Jesus was tempted by Satan.
So we being attacked by a demon is to be expected. What is not supported is the notion that vomit helps to end such an attack or signifies the end of such an attack.
January 28th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
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Well I’ve been places where they keep sheets for that AND PLASTIC TRASHCANS TO CATCH VOMIT.
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I saw a church in my town that practiced the vomiting. The first time I saw it, it freaked me out. In fact one person left in a hurry, which was justified as
“She’s got demons working inside of her, and those demons can’t stand the presence of the Lord that they got her in control and they have deceived her to tell her to leave when her deliverance can come in her life now”
and leadership told two ushers to go after her and try to talk her into coming back in. However, she had already got in her car and left.
After that statement, no one else dared to leave ‘in fear’ of being ’singled out’ as ‘one with demons’ until it was over and praise and worship began again.
In fact, i saw them open the cabinet they had that housed the offering plates, they had Scope mouthwash, Dixie bathroom cups for the Scope, and little quarter sized peppermint candies
—–
IC
In reference to the Bible Scripture these people use to justify vomiting as the sign of demon possession leaving, they use Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They claim that the Greek word for “cast out” (which is ????????? – ekballo per Strongs Concordance) is from the exact same root as the Greek word for vomiting. Strongs says
to eject (literally or figuratively): – bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).
I also went here
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=greek&lookup=vomit&type=begin&options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&.submit=Do+Search
but didn’t see any words even close to the greek word from Strongs.
I don’t see the word ‘vomit’ in that definition…
IndependentConservative reply on January 28th, 2008 at 9:22 pm :
I never mentioned the “vomit” stuff here before because I really HOPED not many had been in such places. That woman who jumped in her car and left before anyone could stop her did the right thing.
Here is Strong’s Greek Lexicon entry for the term ekball?. Nothing about vomit in the MANY uses of that term. Even if it has some relation to the term “vomit” in some language, it does not justify that out of order vomiting nonsense. It’s totally made up with no honest foundation in scripture.
Thank you for telling me how they twist scripture on that one. I need to keep that in mind if I encounter anyone that endorses vomiting.
The place I saw it done at on a regular basis used to at times preach about giving and you know, they made sure to mention that they didn’t like talking about money and they claimed they didn’t talk about money much. But they made sure to claim that if you really want all that “victory” you’ve got to give to them and give big! While they played with all the nonsense about vomit, they made sure to come with a similar pimp game for dollars. All the other activity is to ensure they’ve got drones willing to do anything they say.
January 28th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
First it was “Slaying in the SPirit”. Then it was “hillarious laughing”. Now it’s “vomiting”. Ridiculous. The only thing left is the other end.
January 29th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Let’s call this movement of GOD the “Catharsis” movement. Guess what the next ‘movement’ will be. And as far as the “trabsfer of wealth” movement is concerned, that means “transferred from you to him”. This is a typical communist/socialist/liberal/democrat proposal with God’s name attached.