You’re going to have to read the following in full to know what I’m talking about.
Let Us Reason Ministries: THEY CHANGED THE SABBATH TO SUNDAY
If we are wrong for meeting on a Sunday, so were the apostles of the Lord Jesus for doing the same.
The church has met on Sunday mornings since there has been such a thing and it was not a product of Roman Catholicism. This does not mean Christians “have to” meet on a specific day of the week always. A group of saint’s circumstances may cause them to meet on another day of their choosing, but Sunday was agreed upon and is firmly supported by an honest read of scripture.
Please read what is linked above in full before making any comments.
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January 14th, 2008 at 9:27 am
It still boils down to grace from the Sabbath law and no transgression in Sunday worship. If a person worship on Sunday morning, does that mean they should stop playing cards and work too? If a person rest from their labors or business activities on the Sabbath, does that mean they cannot serve the Lord until the next day. It is all about moving according to the Spirit. IC, if I may, one more thing stands in my way of this that I’m trying to understand. Daniel’s dream in Daniel 7 which was interpreted by angel Gabriel. The four main ruling empires on this earth has changed times and laws. Constantine changed the day of rest to Sunday, while struggling with pagan customs such as the sun god. Pope Gregory changed the Julian calendar. Therefore, it was prophesized about these changes.
January 14th, 2008 at 10:18 am
If I may simply give my opinion (Which I am not dogmatic on) on sunday being the sabbath. We all agree, wether sabbatarian or not, that our Lord was risen on sunday. In Matt 28:1a, it says “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn…” First of all, the words “day of the week” are not even in the original greek. The greek word that is translated “day of the week” is the greek word “sabbaton” which is the plural for sabbath.(Sabbaths) So literally Matt 28:1a reads “Now after the sabbath, as it began to dawn into the first of the sabbaths…” It appears that Matthew is calling the sunday that the Lord arose on as “First of the sabbaths”. I am open to correction.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 10:56 am :
oct31st1517 - Did you read the full write-up in the link above? If not, please read it, this is not a matter of us all seeing Sunday as “Sabbath” at all.
I have seen you mention how you felt the Greek (of Matt 28:1) reads a little differently in one of your videos. I checked you back then against the Greek and found you to be possibly onto something. Unless there is more to interpreting that line of scripture than we see there. Given Biblical Greek requires more than reading word for word at times.
(Personally, I find John 3:8 to be one of the most terrible translations of a verse of scripture and it seems most English translators decided to copy the mistake first made in KJV of calling the Spirit “wind”. When that is not even close to what is in the Greek. John 3:8 is all about the Spirit, no wind included and about where He, not “it”, goes.)
Really I think the link above breaks things down well. (Please read it all.) Personally I don’t see Sunday as a Sabbath replacement and did not even before ever seeing that. I also realize we are not bound to keep Sabbath.
Dare I again say, we are beyond the 10 on stone.
2 Corinthians 3:2-6 (New American Standard Bible)
Paul never went to the Gentiles and placed old covenant legalism of Sabbath on them. He gave the moral laws, not other laws like Sabbath or “tithes” and such. Acts 15 gives a summary, but we Gentile converts too often strive to place old yoke on ourselves, that was NEVER given to us and we are free from the yoke of the old law in Christ.
(You can use the “reply this comment” link to reply directly under a specific comment.)
January 14th, 2008 at 11:52 am
I agree whole heartedly with you brother Darnell. Forgive me for not reading the article in it’s entirety. I am at work during the day and when it slows down I frequently go into your site. I did skim through it and it appears to be very good. I will read it fully at lunch. Again, forgive me.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 12:02 pm :
No problem brother. I hope the write-up is of benefit.
January 14th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
As just coming out of the WOF church, may I ask IC what are the study materials you use in addition to the bible to get such deeper meaning of the scriptures (ie. lexicons, commentaries, etc) I have a Strongs concordance and a expository bible dictionary. I appreciate it.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 2:25 pm :
See the “Christian Links” section on the right side of this page. That’s about it all right there. (Sites like Apostasy Watch, Ariel Ministries, InYourBible.com and Let Us Reason Ministries all will respond if you send them questions. Their time to respond may vary greatly, but they do try to answer questions and I’ve always had good exchanges with them all.) And if I start relying on something else a lot in the future I’ll add links. If someone knows a site with all the early church letters (well as large of a collection as can be found free online) I’d appreciate it. Not that church history is scripture, but for matters like this it does help, given so many lies have been told regarding the history of the church.
Praiser4Life reply on January 14th, 2008 at 2:43 pm :
IC here’s a link:http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html. Let me know if this is what you’re looking for.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 3:08 pm :
Thank you Praiser4Life. Can you believe I’ve been to that site before (more than once) and forgot about it
?
godlysoldier reply on January 14th, 2008 at 9:01 pm :
Thanks so much. I do frequent Apostasy Watch and just came across Let Us Reason last night (was up all night and today and printed out some very things that I had questions on and the Holy Spirit confirmed what was revealed to me. I do try to rely on the Holy Spirit to teach me 1JN 2:27, but because there’s so much WOF “junk” that’s still being “detoxed” from my mind, I wanted some other material that holds fast to the truth, ultimately knowing that the bible IS the truth…and I’m so on a lifelong quest until Jesus comes back to learn and adhere to the Truth in my Christian walk. Thanks again to all that replied!
January 14th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
I have read the article which said:
Those who motivate others with guilt (The Lord said “Remember the Sabbath {seventh} day to keep it Holy) say you must worship on Saturday know this word is named after the Roman god Saturn. (It matters not what the day’s name is, what matters is that it is the seventh day, now just as it was then, and that God blessed and sanctified it.) Genesis 2:3
While there may be a grain of truth in some of the arguments their is much exaggeration and even more extremism in changing the historical facts. (It seems to me that the extremist position is denying the sovereign commandment of God.)
We worship the maker of that day and every day. God made all the days of the week and does not expect to be worshipped on only one day. (If you will truly “worship the maker of the day”, obey His commandments.)
I was about to go point by point, however, I feel that it will be a waste of time to try to refute what Let Us Reason has put forth as “truth”. Instead I will just direct you to a few prophetic scriptures that will show that no matter what man says or thinks the Sabbath is a sign between the Lord and His people. It is a sign which He set forth in His infinite wisdom. Not only did God set a Sabbath rest for man, he also set the Sabbath rest for the land.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Proverbs 24: 21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change: 22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
Future–Isaiah 56: 1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
(Can you see that these scriptures speak of the future?)
Ezekiel 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
FUTURE–Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(Notice that not only is the weekly Sabbath important, but also the other Sabbath Feasts of the Lord, Lev 23.)
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Here is what “thus saith the Lord in regard to His commandments:
Ps 111: 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.
Ecc 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.
Matt 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matt 19: 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
28: 20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Mk 7: 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
Jhn 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
14: 21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
15: 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jhn 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Don’t let this be said of you:
Dt 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Dt 32:15 “But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; You grew fat, you grew thick, You are obese! Then he forsook God who made him, And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation
Dt 32:18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, And have forgotten the God who fathered you.
1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
IC , you said : Paul never went to the Gentiles and placed old covenant legalism of Sabbath on them. You are right, he did not have to place “legalism” on them the knew the law better than today’s “so called Christians”
Have you every read this scripture? What does it say to you?
Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, )
and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(What makes them “wild by nature”?
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Peace
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 4:05 pm :
KingsKid, you answered your own question. Take note of this verse.
Acts 13:43 (New American Standard Bible)
Paul was speaking to people who were already aware of and following Jewish customs there. Paul often started at a synagogue, however when speaking with Gentile converts away from the Jews he did not hold to only speaking to them on Sabbath and as the paper points out (if you read it all) they regularly met on the first day of the week, except when reaching Jews.
Have you ever read Colossians 2?
No, the apostles of the Lord Jesus never told Gentiles they must keep Sabbath and NO it was not some “generally understood” thing. No more than those who claim it was “generally understood” a Gentile was instructed not to eat pork, when it never happened. There is no verse telling Gentiles to keep Sabbath (or not eat pork) because it was not expected of Gentile converts.
If Sabbath is something you desire to keep without fail, go for it. Just keep your yoke off we who were given grace from it. I respect your desire to keep Sabbath without fail, while I feel otherwise and place it under Romans 14.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 4:29 pm :
And for all who desire to pull the “God does not change” rabbit from your hats. I say to you, that you’re absolutely correct. God does not change. But certainly what He expects from man in the covenant we live under very much has. Which is why the old temple is no more.
Misguided use of “God does not change” is exactly what every person on earth that wants to hold everyone to Torah says. Because only God can help someone see it’s not God, but what He has placed man under that has changed and changed for the better with the resurrection of His Son.
January 14th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Can you say that the laws are not done away with because God has written the laws in our hearts, but there’s a change in the priesthood because Christ is our High Priest? Paul stated in Romans that while under grace, we cannot continue in sin.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 7:15 pm :
What is the priesthood changed, the temple changed, God did not change, but now there is grace. So much of what was done we don’t have to continue doing, but the morality laws continue and were affirmed. Avoiding idolatry continues and was affirmed. Those were the kinds of things the apostles reinforced to all churches. And while there was affirmation, penalties changed. We don’t stone people. But the ultimately penalty for sin remains the same and only those with the Savior, Christ in their hearts, will be saved and we who are saved do not seek to sin. We work to do what would please the Lord. We simply were not commanded to have to keep some things.
January 14th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
So to sum up what you’re saying, does this explain what Christ meant about not destroying the law or the prophets but to fulfill it and also based on the two commandments Christ gave, hang the law and the prophets? If not, explain.
IndependentConservative reply on January 14th, 2008 at 8:12 pm :
Christ fulfilled the law, Matthew 5:17. Man was trying to fulfill the law, but for man it was always impossible and the animal could not present man faultless before the Father.
Regarding Matthew 22:36-40, we know that in order to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, so we can show our neighbor love and help our neighbor know the Lord as we also desire ourselves to receive the gift of eternal life, we have to know what Christ commands for us. He gave that clearly to the apostles. The apostles gave it to the church. They didn’t give us a law of “tithe”, they didn’t give us a law of “Sabbath”, they gave us the command to know Christ, flee immorality, love our neighbor and so on as we see in letters to the saints in scripture. Colossians 2 is a flat out stand against efforts to force Sabbath down someone’s throat. The basics of the commands for the church are in Acts 15. The apostles did not desire to place the burden on Gentiles that Jews held. They knew man is not saved by works and they knew what Christ told them. So by the Holy Spirit they gave us what was right for post resurrection of Christ. They never said some man will go to hell for not keeping Sabbath. And nobody can tell me that in all the mess the churches in Corinth did, that if breaking Sabbath was a problem Paul would not have addressed it, no way the saints in Corinth were so bad yet perfect keeping Sabbath, likewise with “tithe”, likewise with the types of food eaten and the list of other things we have no command from the apostles to the church regarding.
Some folks are seeing what was in the old and putting weight on themselves. If someone wishes to do that, I’m not going to debate their decision, but I will stand against them trying to take the yoke they found for themselves and attempting to place it on me.
January 15th, 2008 at 11:09 am
I remember when going to sunday school one day, they expounded on Matthew 22:36-40. They taught something that I see as correct. If you read all 613 laws of Moses, the two commandments that Christ has for us balance out. For instance, if you love your neighbor, you would not steal from him or covet what he has. If you love God, you would not worship other idols, nor seek witches or wizards. When you’ve mentioned animal sacrifices not being sufficient and for man not able to keep these 613 laws, I thought about the scripture when Christ battled it out with the Pharisees and scribes when He started with “Woe unto you”. Therefore anyone whom the Lord has drawn to Him would realize that they cannot do it without Him.
January 15th, 2008 at 11:14 am
To add, it appears the Lord gave us a shortcut(if that’s the word) of the law by inscripting it in our hearts, but the Pharisees didn’t want to hear it. If you place burdens on yourself by following all 613 laws, if you break one, you are guilty of all.
January 15th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Peace to all in the name of our Messiah Yeshua,
First let me state that, no, I don’t believe you have to worship only on the Sabbath and you’re a heretic if you choose to worship on the Sun-day. You are free to worship ADONAI anytime and at any place. That is not the issue.
The issue is the abomination that the The Apostles are responsible for teaching that ADONAI’S Annointed King abolished His Father’s Law by fulfilling them.
It’s very important to understand the context of The Prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel. These were times that Israel and Judah were in rebellion against ADONAI’S Law and was sent into rebellion. ADONAI promised He would send Israel and Judah into captivity but promised a New Covenant which would restore The Love of ADONAI’S Law and a reuniting of Israel and Judah into The Promised Land(Jer.31:28-40). The Scriptures never suggest a group of gentiles will replace Israel and Judah in this New Covenant(Cf.Rom.11, Paul says ingrafted contrary to nature).
Ezekiel through the Holy Spirit explains that ADONAI’S Law on our hearts causes obedience and the New Covenant is a RESTORATION of obedience to ADONAI’S Law and restoration of The Promised Land(Ezekiel 36-37).
“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd ; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.”
According to the letter to Israel the only change is in priesthood with it’s sacrafices:
“14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 “THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,” He then says, 17 “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.”
Notice Paul instructs the Roman congregation to celebrate the feast of Passover/Unleaven Bread! Paul does not inform the Romans to avoid this celebration or replace this celebration with their former Pagan celebrations days OR since you can not offer sacrafices, you’re not properly observing Passover.
Instead Paul instructs the Romans to:
“5:8
Therefore LET US CELEBRATE THE FEAST, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”
The greek word Paul used is: Heortazo; Gk.#1858; verb; to celebrate a holy day/feast from Gk.#1859-Noun-Heorte- Holy Day/Feast Day(Cf.Mt.26:5).
But why celebrate this Feast, insn’t it legalism; Don’t we need a sacrafice in the Temple. No, Paul says to celebrate Passover/Unleaven bread because:
“Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed(V.7). Note that the Holy Week consists of a Sabbath Day(Lk.23:56)
“And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.”
It is an abomination to claim that ADONAI’S Annointed King Messiah will come and abolish/set aside or crucify His Father’s Law. That is the job of Satan and his LAWLESS Ones.
According to the Holy Feasts of ADONAI, His Annointed One arose on the Feast of Firstfruits, Hence all the references by Paul of Christ as the Firstruit and John’s Revelations as “The Lamb”. it was the western church was changed these times and laws(Dan.7:25) of ADONAI.
As for Colossians chapter 2. I believe Scripture doesn’t CONTRADICT but COMPLIMENTS each other. How could Paul tell the Romans to celebrate Passover/Unleaven Bread and then contradict himself to the Colossians to ignore his(Paul) instructions to celebrate it!? Context is key!
Paul is instructing the Colossians to ignore what Christ and His disciples ignored,i.e., not the commandments of ADONAI but the:
“TRADITIONS OF MEN (Col.2:8)”. “Let no man judge you in respect to a Holy Day(2:16; Same word in his exhortation TO CELEBRATE, 1Cor.5:8, heorte,Gk.1859)”. or “Commandments and doctrine of men(2:22). This is not the commandments of ADONAI that Christ put to “Public shame(Gk.#1165,to disgrace openly; Cf.Mt.1:19). See verse 15, it’s the “authorities and powers” of men that Christ put to shame, the traditions of men that abolish His Father’s commandments(Mt15:1-9).
Christ instructs his disciples to pray that our escape from The Lawless One which Daniel prophesied about will not occur on a Sabbath(Mt.24:20). Why should we pray about a day we don’t obey?
Have we become like the Pharisess who upheld the Traditon of the Elders in replacement of the Commandments of God?
24:11
“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
24:12
“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
“Lawlessness”-Gk.#458 without Law from Gk.459 destitute of Law”. We know from CONTEXT the Prophets, Paul, and ADONAI himself, it’s speaks of Our GOD’S Law.
Again, it’s not if you have to but why don’t you? The Sabbath was a created day for Humans. The more I live in the United States and see the greed of men. I realize that GOD’S Law has no place in our country. We want more, we work more, we can’t discern between Paul’s exhortation toward obeying GOD’S Law and his rebuking of those who obey GOD’S Law as a means to grace. We obey GOD’S Law not to be saved but because we are saved.
“This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments AND remain faithful to Jesus(REV. 14:12″.
Shalom Alechem,
Avishalom
IndependentConservative reply on January 15th, 2008 at 1:37 pm :
Hello avishalom,
First let me ask, before you wrote all that, did you follow the instruction in the post to read the entire write-up in the link first?
If not, please do not respond again till you have read it in full.
You are trying to place a yoke on converts that is NOT for this dispensation. The law being fulfilled in Christ and we being in Christ means we are saved by grace from penalty of the law. Also Gentile converts were NEVER given the burden of having to observe the whole old law, never, Acts 15.
I will not strive with you much on this matter. Because you are not only speaking about Sabbath. You’re trying to have Christians keep Torah if I’m not mistaken. You tell me if I’m wrong? (After you’ve read the write-up in the link above, if you have not already read it in full.)
avishalom reply on January 15th, 2008 at 2:15 pm :
INDEPENDENTCONSERVATIVE,
What I’m advocating is the New Covenant Contract as prophesied through the Spirit filled prophets of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Paul.
I agree with you that we are removed from the “penalty of the law”. I don’t agree that this means we are free to ignore ADONAI’S Law.
Christ’s fulillment doesn’t abolish His Father’s Law. If we continue with the context of His teaching we see that Christ COMPLIMENTS the Prophets New Covenant and doesn’t CONTRADICT them. We see Christ says about His coming in entirety:
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
5:18
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
5:19
“Whoever then LOOSENS(GK.#3089) one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever KEEPS and TEACHES them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
He compliments His Father’s Prophets. The Prophets warn us that it is Satan who draws us away from ADONAI’S Law and it’s the ANTI-CHRIST not CHRIST who will change ADONAI’S Laws and Days(Dan.7:25).
Yes, we are free to observe any day but we should take heed to what GOD tells the son. He warns us TO PRAY in these Last Days that we won’t have to escape the ANTI-CHRIST on a Sabbath Day(Mt.24:20).
Why should we pray about the Sabbath Day if it’s limited to a “dispensation”? Christ spent his time on Earth Defending His Father’s Sabbath not teaching that the Feast of Firstfruits will replace it and that at a later “Dispensation” we will relable this ressurection day(firstfruits) as The Sun-Day.
Again, I’m not placing a yoke on anyone. The Sabbath would be a yoke ONLY IF you observed it “to be saved”. ADONAI tells me it’s a gift created for man! We see in Genesis 2, Scripture continues to compliment itself not contradict.
Christ warned that if we placed the traditions of men on God’s Holy Days;Sabbath,passover, Firstfruits(Colossians 2)we have made it a yoke and a burden.
There are many commandments of God that are not listed in Acts 15. I don’t believe if we obey the New Covenant’s stipulations that we are placing a yoke on believers.
However, if we isolate Acts 15 in our study of the New Covenant Contract we are guilty of “taking away” and “loosening” His commandments. Again, there are many things Acts 15 leaves out, it’s not placing a yoke on a believer to further require him to pray, believe in the trinity, attend worship on the Sunday, etc. It’s obedience not legalism.
IndependentConservative reply on January 15th, 2008 at 2:22 pm :
avishalom - You have obviously not read the material you were asked to read before making comment here. In your desiring to do what is right, you have not even followed simple instructions I have given to you as owner of this blog for you to follow prior to making a comment.
I have one question that I’d like an answer from you on, do you feel Christians should keep Torah?
IndependentConservative reply on January 15th, 2008 at 3:38 pm :
While I hope you’re reading the material avishalom, I’ll note that:
Matthew 24:20 (New American Standard Bible)
Jesus says pray that their flight not be in
winter or on a Sabbath. He did not just say “Sabbath” but winter too. Now if you live in Hawaii you really don’t care when you have to run in regards to a season of the year. So can we honestly say everyone worries about travel in winter, not when it’s 80 degrees and you consider that a cold day. Jesus said Winter because in that area thing freeze over, making travel difficult. He said a Sabbath, because the gates of the city were closed on Sabbaths and they would not be able to escape! That is not a command from Christ to all who believe on Him that they must keep every Sabbath or keep all of the old law. He certainly was not saying keep winter holy. The command was that when they come to kill you, flee and pray conditions are good for running.
Keep in mind Jesus had already said He did not know when the exact time of His return would be, but the Father alone knows, Matthew 24:36.
Matthew 24:19 is certainly no command against bearing children in the last days, which we have been in for thousands of earth years.
Again I’ll repeat my question so you don’t miss it when you’re done reading.
Do you feel Christians should keep Torah?
avishalom reply on January 15th, 2008 at 8:08 pm :
Shalom I.C.,
I will try to compact my answers into one post. Yes, I read the entire article and I totally disagree with the doctrine of dispensationalism on many points and the author’s way of interpreting Scripture in particular.
Anyway, to answer your question, “Do you feel Christians should keep Torah?”. First, I have to gather ALL that the Spirit Filled Prophets proclaim.
The Prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Messiah Yeshua, and Paul never identify believers of The New Covenant as “Christians”.
Those accepting the New Covenant stipulations are Israel and Judah(Jer.31 & Ez.36-37). These Israelites and Judeans when filled with the Holy Spirit will begin to do something which our traditions prohibit. As believers, we do not replace Israel and Judah but are rather ingrafted contrary to nature(Rom.11) in contradiction to dispensationalism.
“I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.(Ez.36:27)”
or as Paul states about those who reject GOD’S Law, it’s because their hostile to it and have their minds set on flesh:
8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for IT DOES NOT SUBJECT ITSELF TO THE LAW OF GOD, for it is not even able to do so,
8:8
and those who are in the flesh cannot * please God.
8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
We see that Paul doesn’t contradict but compliments the Prophets! According to them, under the New Covenant those accepting the Holy Spirit will “SUBJECT” themselves to Torah unlike those who “ARE HOSTILE” towards it.
I think the problem is that you’re assuming I believe Christians(New Covenant Spirit Filled believers) should observe the Law to be saved. NOT SO!! If we rely on the Law to be saved then YES, we are placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that no man can bare. This is what Acts 15 and Galatians deal with. I do not believe that Paul contradicts himself. It’s obvious when we examine the context of his letters, especially Luke’s recording of the Apostilc Council in Acts 15.
They were dealing with people teaching that Gentiles “have to” observe GOD’S commandments to be saved. Not so, this is legalism NOT obedience(Acts15:1,5).
However, Jacob(incorrectly called James) does not conclude that Gentiles are to avoid God’s Law. He concludes:
15:21
“Because Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
“Because/For”-Gar-Conjuction-Gk.#1063.
Again, Paul instructs New Covenant believers to “CELEBRATE THE FEAST” of Passover and Unleaven Bread(1Cor.5:8) which consists of a Sabbath and the Day of Firstfruits.
Paul doesn’t tell the Corinthians to avoid Passover because it’s another “Dispensation” under the “Old Law”.
As far as your assumption that Christ instructed people to Pray that their flight from the AntiChrist doesn’t occur on the Sabbath only because the gates were closed is a presumption which avoids context.
The Scriptures state that it is the ANTI-Christ that will change God’s Days and Laws (Dan.7:25) not Messiah. Messiah in fact warns us that He did not come to abolish His Father’s Law and in fact whoever loosens it will be called least (Mt.5:17-19).
Both winter and Sabbath are times of rest. The AntiChrist when in control of the Temple could care less if the “gates are closed” for sabbath. He seeks to abolish this Law and make men work. Also, in the first century, the Romans were did not shut down the gates on the Sabbath!? So from a historical perspective to conclude The Law giver/defender, Messiah, only wanted to make sure gates were open is dubious.
So if the Promise Messiah who instructs us to keep and teach His Father’s Law as the Prophets agree we will do when Spirit Filled. How do you conclude Christ doesn’t expect us to observe His Father’s Law? Just like Paul he exhorts his disciples to celebrate Passover as a rememberance of our Redemption from sin(1Cor.5:8, Mt.26). This is an important Holy Day/Feast of ADONAI not a yoke no man can bear.
Again, I see Scripture as complimenting each other not Contradicting each other. If we cancel out Paul when he exhorts us to obey God’s Law with passages that appear to exhort us to disobey/rebel against GOD’S Law, we have become wolves doing violence to ADONAI’S Word.
May His Kingdom Come,
Avishalom
IndependentConservative reply on January 16th, 2008 at 12:23 am :
One of many reasons you and I will never agree.
At times Jesus is referred to as a prophet, but He is more than a prophet. The Lord Jesus Christ, Messiah Yeshua is God, John 1. One with the Father from the beginning. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 persons that are the One True God, Matthew 28:19. Paul acknowledged that he was many things, but he never claimed to be a prophet. He said himself that he was a preacher, apostle and a teacher, 2 Timothy 1:11. Prophets came before the Son of God walked earth in flesh, Hebrews 1.
Peter uses the term “Christian” in 1 Peter 4:16. So it is a valid term.
I agree we are in grafted. I disagree that this goes against dispensationalism. I believe as Romans 11 points out, that those who don’t believe on Christ are the branches cut off and those who are even of Hebrew blood that don’t accept Christ are cast into the fire as all unbelievers are. The ultimate redemption of Israel’s final remnant will bring pure olive branches back. Some of Hebrew blood are saved today, but not many, but one day all Israel will embrace Jesus as Lord. That does not save a person of Hebrew blood who dies without embracing Christ right now though. Just making that clear.
You ramble for ages, but you’ve finally addressed what you knew I was getting at. You are a legalist of the law, despite how many way you attempt to avoid it and you knew I was going to press you until you finally said what we both knew. You mirror the party of the Pharisee of Acts 15. Verse 5 especially.
As I say continually, I am not against those wish to follow the Mosaic law, I am against those who wish to follow the law trying to make me follow what is not commanded to the church. How many times Paul wrote against your view, yet Pharisee doctrine continues. Galatians proves to Christians that efforts to press Christians to keep Torah is a bad thing.
You are directing me to keep the laws of Moses, just as the party of the Pharisee. You sound just like the Pentecostals that say we are saved by faith and then place burdens of works on people. I speak with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses (plus other assorted legalists) and all will at some point claim salvation is of faith, but like the Torah enforcers of today, all then claim I must assume a weight never given me or I’m displeasing God. To turn down your view is seen as being hostile and by your own definitions I become evil for doing so. You said yourself:
I say according to them the burden of Mosaic law was never mine to bear.
Because I won’t “subject” myself to keeping all of the Mosaic law and refuse when asked I’m being hostile in your eyes. You claim you don’t stand on salvation by works, but you very much do.
See it how you wish, the words prove you can’t place Mosaic law on me and claim I must “subject” to what was not given to Gentile converts. I subject to my Lord Jesus Christ and your Torah burden was not given to me.
I think any saint reading Acts 15 for themselves will see that they never need to assume the burden of Torah.
You mention Matthew 5:19, while ignoring Gentile converts were not told to keep Mosaic law, while we do keep the law given to us as the Lord gave the apostles to teach to us. In all the admonishment Paul wrote to Gentile churches he never said Gentile converts should adhere to the whole Mosaic law and the actions of the churches from their start affirms this. In 1 Corinthians 10:25 Paul does not say “of the clean meats”.
It is against “the law” (Mosaic law) to travel on Sabbath, nobody said it was a rule enacted by Rome. But travel was forbidden on Sabbath and gates closed.
According to the old law, a Christian that drives across town on a Saturday morning is breaking “the law”.
Because the law given to me is not the law of Moses. The law given to me includes a Liberty that can’t be found in Torah.
1 Corinthians 5 is not talking about a passover feast. But you’ve missed the point in seeking to toss the burden of Torah to all. Galatians and Colossians 2 stand firmly against your Torah enforcement efforts, as does the whole of scripture instructing the church.
Avishalom, you strive and contend over the law. As scripture commands TO THE CHURCH, after a couple of rounds I must let you go on your way.
Titus 3:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)
May the Lord help you.
January 15th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
So What does ADONAI say about Gentiles and the observance of His Sabbath Day?
Through the Prophet Isaiah(56) ADONAI says:
56:1
Thus says the LORD, “Preserve justice and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come And My righteousness to be revealed.
56:2
“How blessed is THE MAN who does this, And the son of MAN who takes hold of it; Who keeps from profaning the sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil .”
56:3
Let not THE FOREIGNER who has joined himself to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely separate me from His people .” Nor let THE EUNUCH say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”
56:4
For thus says the LORD, “To THE EUNUCHS who keep My sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
56:5
To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial, And a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
56:6
“Also THE FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
56:7
Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in MY HOUSE OF PRAYER. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a House of prayer for ALL THE PEOPLES .”
56:8
The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, “Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”
56:9
All you beasts of the field , All you beasts in the forest , Come to eat.
56:10
His watchmen are blind, All of them know nothing. All of them are mute dogs unable * to bark, Dreamers lying down, who love to slumber;
56:11
And the dogs are greedy *, they are not satisfied *. And they are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, Each one to his unjust gain, to the last one .
56:12
“Come,” they say, “let us get wine, and let us drink heavily of strong drink ; And tomorrow will be like today *, only more 3499a, * so.”
ADONAI calls them Blessed! not legalists or Judaizers. Even the Eunuch!! But it’s the “GREEDY DOGS” who go their own way! Noticed ADONAI doesn’t force anyone to accept this gift but allows much freedom. It’s not legalism it’s obedience.
IndependentConservative reply on January 15th, 2008 at 1:57 pm :
avishalom - Why didn’t you answer my questions? I expect answers in your next comment.
Why do you place burdens on saints?
Again Acts 15 rebukes you, the entire book of Galatians rebukes you.
What you are trying to put on converts is not right. If you like that for yourself, fine, keep all 613 laws, but please keep your yoke away from me.
January 15th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Avishalom, I agree with the grace aspect of the law, and Christ gave two commandments for us to follow. Do you believe once Christ return, we would be obligated to follow all 613 laws. One more question, do you think when Constantine made Sunday an official day of rest, he was fulfilling Daniel 7?
IndependentConservative reply on January 15th, 2008 at 11:23 pm :
I’m sorry art123, but Avishalom has got to go. I will explain in detail in a forthcoming comment above.
There is a most valid and 100% scripture based reason for me doing this as I will totally explain in that comment.
Melvin lets him hang out there and that is Melvin’s blog. Because of the more open commenting allowed by registered members here (I don’t screen every comment before it post), I keep a much tighter lid on who is allowed to comment continually. Avishalom did include a link to his web site in his screen name, so I’m sure you can reach him there if you desire to continue conversation with him. I can’t keep the party of the Pharisee around trying to place yoke Christ never gave to saints.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:38 am
Acts 15 lays this controversy to bed once and for all. It deals SPECIFICALLY with this question of whether Gentile converts are to keep the Mosaic law (which includes Sabbath-keeping).
Act 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and {began} teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
(Obedience to the Law of Moses being commanded for the gentile converts)
Act 15:2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, {the brethren} determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
Act 15:3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
Act 15:4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
(Here even more explicitly, the question being addressed specifically is whether the Gentile converts are to keep The Law Of Moses which includes Sabbath-keeping)
Act 15:6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
(Notice it is the APOSTLES who are considering the matter, therefore their verdict here has the same Apostolic authority that their New Testament writings carry)
Act 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Act 15:8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
Act 15:9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Act 15:11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
Act 15:12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
Act 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me.
Act 15:14 “Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
Act 15:15 “With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
Act 15:16 ‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
Act 15:17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’
Act 15:18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
Act 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
(Notice that commanding the Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses is referred to as “troubling” the Gentiles)
Act 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
(There you go……..this is ALL that the Apostles commanded the Gentile converts to obey.NOT the Law of Moses which was referenced as “troubling” them. ONLY these essential commands. No idolatry, no sexual sin, no pagan practices, and no blood….)
Act 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas–Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
Act 15:23 and they sent this letter by them, “The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
Act 15:24 we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with {their} words, unsettling your souls,
(Notice that the command to follow the Law of Moses has now been referred to as a yoke,a troubling, a disturbance, and an unsettling of the converts)
Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word {of mouth.}
Act 15:28 it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
(Now to up the ante even further, not only is this designated with Apostolic authority, but with the very authority of God Himself. Let’s see what this verdict of God and the Apostles concerning the keeping of the Mosaic Law is.)
Act 15:29 you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
(That’s it. Period. This expressly and unambiguously tells us, under the authority of God and the Apostles, that the Mosaic Law is NOT binding upon the converts, and that if they obey only the simple essentials listed above they would DO WELL).
Act 15:30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
Act 15:31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
There is no other way of interpreting this. This teaching under God’s and Apostolic authority by precept,example, narrative, and didactic, that the Gentiles are NOT bound by the Mosaic Law, answers all challenges and puts the teachings in Galatians and Romans about the Law and Christians in their proper context.