Just a great video.
The Heresy of Oneness/Jesus only preaching
? Personally, I never let them cross my doorstep and rebuke them from the front door.
2 John 1:10-11 (New American Standard Bible)
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Some who are into false doctrines spread untruths about some historical events and teaching about God being triune. Read, The Nicene Council, what was it really about?
Related post: The Trinity, a Godhead of 3 Persons, 3 That are the One True God, Proven via Hebrew Scripture
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November 26th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
IC,
Could you watch CNN at 9:00pm? Paula White will be on Larry King speaking about the investigation, and her divorce.
November 26th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Thanks for the tip. It will be most interesting if Larry King asks her THE QUESTION.
November 26th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
But what do you make of the video in this post, to keep things on topic
.
November 26th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Man what an awesome response from this brother in the faith.I have had similar discussions and it seems to me that many folks are misinformed or flat out deceitful in their understanding of trinitarian theology.What bothers me is that so many black churches see nothing wrong with so called apostolic church folk.PAW which is the largest black oneness church has infiltrated many of our churches and as a result people like Noel Jones can preach in just about any AME, COGIC, or Baptist church.This doctrine is flat out heresy and there is no other way to look at it.October31st1517 is a great apologist and I have enjoyed his responses.IC take a look at the late great Walter Martin and Dr. Calvin Beisner defend the faith against oneness UPC heretics Nathaniel Urshan and Robert Sabin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQdUxAK58A&feature=related
November 27th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
This guy did a great job in defense of the doctrine of the Trinity.
The Oneness people has truly hijacked the terms "Apostolic and Christianity."
December 7th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Someone using the handle "mlculwell" would like to comment here, but they are not really commenting, just trying to promote their sites.
Mlculwell, if you want to participate, you might be allowed, but don’t think you’ll be allowed to simply promote your sites. You’re going to have to actually engage here, no I’m not going there. You came here and any exchange will be had here, for long as I deem it to last.
So lets start with you at:
John 14:23 (New American Standard Bible)
Now this is a question my brother who made the video you disagree with asked and so lets have your answer. The Lord Jesus Christ in John 14:23 states, that if anyone loves Him, they will keep His Word and His Father will love that person and "WE" will come to that person and make "OUR" abode with that person.
If God is not triune, how do you explain why Christ says WE and OUR?
And for your own personal reference, I’ll add that the Gospel was first to the Jew and then everyone else. Even Jews who know Christ, Messianic Jews recognize the Trinity and realize God’s triune nature is explained in detail in Hebrew scripture.
That is by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, " If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Now this is a question my brother who made the video you disagree with asked and so lets have your answer. The Lord Jesus Christ in John 14:23 states, that if anyone loves Him, they will keep His Word and His Father will love that person and "WE" will come to that person and make "OUR" abode with that person.If God is not triune, how do you explain why Christ says WE and OUR?And for your own personal reference, I’ll add that the Gospel was first to the Jew and then everyone else. Even Jews who know Christ, Messianic Jews recognize the Trinity and realize God’s triune nature is explained in detail in Hebrew scripture.That is by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew.
Manuel culwell
It is very simple friend, something they don’t teach you folks in the Trinity churches!
You do understand that Jesus was all God and all man at the same time? I know you at least understand that Part. Jesus said in (John 5:30 KJV)* I can of mine own self do nothing.*That was his human self!The same human self that died.
Jesus also said In (John 14:10 KJV)The father that dwelleth in me he doeth the works.
So the passage you submitted (John 14:23) is a fantastic Oneness passage and I might add the same John Chapter 14 where I pulled John 14:10 where it is the Father dwelling in the son as Spirit doing the works of God that Jesus did, In other words; there was no "God the son deity" But rather the deity of the son was the spirit of God the father.(John 4:24 God is Spirit)There is One God in the Lord Jesus Christ who is both God and man," the we that will come to the believer" Because at the time Jesus spoke he was a man and not yet the Spirit that (1st Cor. 15:45 speaks )THE LAST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT. Also (Acts 2:36)Jesus was made Both Lord and Christ He was not already because he was a a man with a beggining, But his deity of God the father had no beggining… As a man he had a God, (John 20:17) I ascend Unto my Father and your father unto my God and your God How is it God has a God? The we that would come was his glorified humanity fused with the spirit Now His Spirit that was Given wihtout measure (John 3:34) God giveth Not the Spirit By measure unto him.(Jesus)
I challenge any Trinitarian to show me His deity was that Of "god the son" there is no such thing in scripture
As for Trinity Jews ther are Thousands Of Oneness Jews and you can go here to find them and have trinity Jews Go here and try and pawn that Doctrine off on them .
Manuel
(Edited by IndependentConservative: Again, you’re not going to use this blog as your personal site promotional tool. Your last link has been removed. You will discuss the issue here.)
December 7th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
That link was not a link that I cared to promote, it was a link to show you there are just as many Oneness jews as there are those who believe the false doctrine of the trinity.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
mlculwell – That response, as always with Oneness responses is pathetic.
And with such ridiculous claims, you can’t hold them properly against:
John 1:1-2; John 1:14 (New American Standard Bible)
He was with God from the beginning! And He became flesh, the flesh was not His starting point.
The same way God speaks to God in Heaven in Hebrews 1, because there are 3 persons that are each God and One. God can’t tell His Son who He calls God to have His seat and about His throne unless there is a multi-person conversation in progress.
Christ said WE and OUR and you’ve failed to offer an answer that agrees with scripture.
Colossians 2:9 (New American Standard Bible)
There you go.
Now look at this:
John 14:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Notice Jesus says that He will ASK THE FATHER and HE will give you ANOTHER, that HE will be with you forever. That would be Jesus (1), speaking to His Father (2), about the Holy Spirit (3). Jesus makes it clear there is a 3 person function at work.
John 17:5 (New American Standard Bible)
We see again, that Jesus did not begin in flesh, He pre-existed the world with the Father and asks to be glorified again with His Father. This is not Jesus playing some ventriloquist trick, but the Son speaking directly to the Father. He does not say He is the Father, but He asks to again be WITH the Father.
You’re not going to be able to play word games here. Your doctrine does not stand up to scripture, making it a false doctrine and you a false teacher.
December 8th, 2007 at 1:07 am
mlculwell – That response, as always with Oneness responses is pathetic. Jesus was made Both Lord and Christ He was not already because he was a a man with a beggining, But his deity of God the father had no beggining…
IDC:And with such ridiculous claims, you can’t hold them properly against:
John 1:1-2; John 1:14 (New American Standard Bible) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
mlculwell: LOL! Psalm 33:6 By the *Word Of the LORD*(Jehovah) were the heavens made and all the host of them By the breath of his Mouth.
That’s a pretty neat trick you Trinitarains do by making a person out of the word by the breath of God’s mouth. You add something to scripture that is not there, The word in John 1:1 is being spoken of as though he existed because John spoke from an actual knowing expreience.
The word (Logos) was not a seperate person from and with God in creation but rather was the thought , plan ,concept, Idea, this was the Greek meaning of the word Logos/logos and to find what it actually meant we can go to the scriptures and read for ourselfs in the New testament from the Apostle Pauls Own words: (2nd. Tim.2:17 KJB)And Their *word*(logos evil thoughts, concepts) will eat as doth a canker of whom is Hymeaneus and Philetus concerning the truth have erred.
This is not the Logos of God But Paul and apostle of the Lord is perfect harmony in use and meaning and usage with John from Johns Gospel the modern preacher contradicts the apostles meaning and usage.
IDC:
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.He was with God from the beginning! And He became flesh, the flesh was not His starting point. How is it God has a God?
mlculwell:Yes the word became Flesh it was God’s plan from the foundation of the world(Rev.13:8) a matter of fact the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world in his Logos plan.
A matter of fact John gives us further insight in his first epistle(John 1:1-3) Only this time he is called *the word of Life* that was with God in the begging.The word and we have seen *IT* John declares *
As For your God having aGod from (John 20;17) Iascend unto my God.
Friend you are contradicting your doctrine of the Trintiy! God cannot have a God without undeifing the God with a God, anything that has a God is less than God! You ignore the argument and it makes you look ignorant.
IDC:
The same way God speaks to God in Heaven in Hebrews 1, because there are 3 persons that are each God and One. God can’t tell His Son who He calls God to have His seat and about His throne unless there is a multi-person conversation in progress.
mlculwell: Friend you ignored every argument to promote your trinity doctrine, The Hebrew 1:8 passage is is a qoutation from (Psalm 45:6-7) a prophecy of the coming son who was made the Quickening spirit (1st,Cor.15:45,John 3:34,) perfect Humanity joined with divinty, humanity which had a beggining! Humanity that had a real relationship as a real man with his real God (John 20:17) The rest of the Psalm passage which you did not qoute reads:Thy throne oh God is forever and ever :which is the first part of the prophecy that deals with him being given his deity the next part of the passage deals with his humanity in subjection to his God.
Thou Lovest Righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therfore God,Thy God, hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy *FELLOWS*. So just how many Gods do you have ? If anyones doctrine is ridiculous it is yours!
IDC:
Christ said WE and OUR and you’ve failed to offer an answer that agrees with scripture.
mlculwell: That is because you ignored my arguments to submit other passaages that makes your doctrine look even more foolish the we and our was dealt with Humanity and divinty, spirit and flesh!
I challenge any Trinitarian to show me His deity was that Of "god the son" there is no such thing in scripture Colossians 2:9 (New American Standard Bible) 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, There you go.
mlculwell:This passage does not say God the son was in the son! I gave passages that says the father does the works0(John 14:10 and the son can do nothing of himself (John 5:30)and was given the spirit(John 3:34, 1st. Cor.15:45)
IDC:
Now look at this:John 14:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Notice Jesus says that He will ASK THE FATHER and HE will give you ANOTHER, that HE will be with you forever. That would be Jesus (1), speaking to His Father (2), about the Holy Spirit (3). Jesus makes it clear there is a 3 person function at work.
Mlculwell: NO, Focus IDC! Jesus actually says he is the first comforter in the flesh and will be the other comforter in the Spirit,(John 14:18) I (Jesus )will Not leave you comfortless,I (Jesus) Will come to you(As the spirit)he prays as a real limited man to his real all powerfull God which by the way all power in heaven and earth was given to him (Math.28:18) I don’t care how many times you bring up conversations because it is between 1God and 1 man, Not two persons of God!
IDC:
John 17:5 (New American Standard Bible)
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.We see again, that Jesus did not begin in flesh, He pre-existed the world with the Father and asks to be glorified again with His Father. This is not Jesus playing some ventriloquist trick, but the Son speaking directly to the Father. He does not say He is the Father, but He asks to again be WITH the Father.You’re not going to be able to play word games here. Your doctrine does not stand up to scripture, making it a false doctrine and you a false teacher.
mlculwell: The Only false teacher is you and your Trinity doctrine of multiple persons of God!
The glory Jesus had is not at all speaking of pre-existence of a so called "God the son". The glory speaks of the same thing (Rev. 13:8 )spoke of; The lamb being slain from the foundation of the world. as the paln of god for future redemption ..Notice (John 7:38-39) If any man thirst let him come un to me and drink but this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should recieve, for the Holy Ghost was not yet given for Jesus was not yet G-L-O-R-I-F-I-E-D(Not yet slain) this was the glory he refered to he had with the father from the foundation of the world in plan (Logos) of God……
December 8th, 2007 at 2:38 am
mlculwell ,
Not hardly. I realize the Son reveres the Father, there are 3 and they are One. Such order is something you can’t conceptualize properly when using false doctrine such as Modalism.
The talk of 2 Timothy 2:17 is not the Word of John 1:1. You have turned Jesus from the Son of God into a mere concept. Disgusting. You really do follow a false god.
Repeatedly scripture makes it clear the Word is Christ, Revelation 19:11-13. And Christ makes it clear who gave Him authority to judge, John 5:22. You make a mockery of Christ Himself!
Hebrews 1:8 (New American Standard Bible)
Despite how CLEARLY THE SON IS DECLARED GOD BY "HE", and:
John 17:5 (New American Standard Bible)
How clearly Christ makes it known that it is what had been before the world was, that there was FATHER AND SON, you still can’t grasp that there are multiple, despite the fact they speak together in Heaven and the Son spoke to the Father on Earth.
There is no physical flesh that comes into someone that accepts Christ. There is a WE, a Father and Son by way of the Holy Spirit. A 3 person action at work.
God is One and all persons work in concert. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yes the Son does the will of the Father and the Holy Spirit does the will of Christ.
John 16:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ makes it CLEAR there is another HE, the Holy Spirit. That glorifies Him. The Son glorifies the father, John 15:8. 3 persons clearly at work and you’ve got to use everything but scripture to twist the point.
You’re missing that Christ notes the Holy Spirit as a separate He and not Himself. "He will glorify Me", Christ did not say "he is me"
.
Because you know it blows aways your Oneness heresy!
Genesis 1:26 (New American Standard Bible)
The Father HAS TO BE SPEAKING TO THE SON THERE, THE SON WHO HAD NOT COME IN FLESH, BECAUSE:
Hebrews 1:2-3 (New American Standard Bible)
All was made BY GOD THROUGH CHRIST. Now I know this is hard for you Oneness folks to grasp, but God does not sit in His own lap! He (Christ) sat down AT THE RIGHT HAND of His Father. They are One, yet it is clear the Son’s position to the Father, sitting on the right, location Heaven.
Isaiah 48:16 (New American Standard Bible)
He (Jesus) says He was there and He was sent. And notice the mention of His Spirit. 3 again! The glory Christ speaks of in John 17:5 is what He had previously and you deny the fullness of His deity to say otherwise.
You’re really turning scriptures backwards to try and prove a point that is not there.
John 13:31-32 (New American Standard Bible)
So here God is glorified in Christ. 2 persons, because Christ as I said does the will of His Father. You mentioned Christ declared He had been given all power in Matthew 28:18.
Now let me show you why there MUST BE separate persons. Christ had earlier said:
Matthew 24:36 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ makes it clear He does not know the day or hour that He will be sent by the Father to return. You Oneness folks would like to think that Jesus is His own Father and in that verse you’d claim He spoke as a mere man, but that theory does not hold weight against the following, which was said AFTER Christ had all power and was glorified.
Acts 1:6-8 (New American Standard Bible)
Again, Christ says it is the Father that fixed the time. He attributes it TO THE FATHER even after resurrection and made no claim to know the time, but remains the Son. Son still the Son and Father still the Father. Christ declares the Holy Spirit will come and they will be His witnesses. Again, Jesus speaks of Himself, His Father and the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 13:14 (New American Standard Bible)
The Trinity is undeniable.
December 8th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Friend you are contradicting your doctrine of the Trintiy! God cannot have a God without undeifing the God with a God, anything that has a God is less than God! You ignore the argument and it makes you look ignorant.
ICD:
Not hardly. I realize the Son reveres the Father, there are 3 and they are One. Such order is something you can’t conceptualize properly when using false doctrine such as Modalism.
mlculwell: I conceptualize your doctrine very well seeing as How I came from that three headed mess. Again you ignore My argument!I also believe the son reveres the father! That has nothing to do with my argument that does not prove your false doctrine of three persons. God cannot have someone above him in an order or he is not God, The Son was in subjection to the father because he was a real human man that lived and died .
This continues to make you look as though you are ignoring my arguemnts to force your own which I will answer everytime untill you understand where I am coming from.
IDC
The talk of 2 Timothy 2:17 is not the Word of John 1:1. You have turned Jesus from the Son of God into a mere concept. Disgusting. You really do follow a false god.Repeatedly scripture makes it clear the Word is Christ, Revelation 19:11-13. And Christ makes it clear who gave Him authority to judge, John 5:22. You make a mockery of Christ Himself!
mlculwell: What I am doing is using scripture and you an unscriptual tradition that has been handed for many years and accepted without any real scholarship (Just Glossary haphazard lacksadasical study of God’s word) I gave Two Apostles in agreement from those passages and their intended original menaing and usage of the word you gave hand me down unscriptual tradition.The Rev.19:11-13 Passage is after the word/Logos/plan was made flesh and Glorified. You again demonstarte how you make a glossary study of God’s word without any thought to what you read. (No Spirit or word from you folks) Absolutely was Jesus Given his Authority! That is waht I have been saying , what you need to realize is that God does not need to be given anything he already has it! If God needs to be given something then he is not God,. It was the man that was Given all power and authority and made the Life giving Spirit Because the man had a beggining.
The following passage you ignored where scripture contradicts your evil doctrine.
6: By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Hebrews 1:8 (New American Standard Bible)
8 But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
mlculwell: The Hebrews passage as I have already stated is a qoutation from psalm (45:6-7 KJV)
6: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7: Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Let me break this down for you since you don’t seem to comprehend what you read.The first part of the passage you submitted deals with The son’s deity! Yes It does! Amen and Amen! I have submitted passages where that Deity was Given him. (1st. Cor. 15:45 THE LAST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT. Acts 2:36, This same Jesus was made Both Lord and Christ, John 3:34 God Giveth not the spirit by measure unto him.) Of course you ignored those arguments and have tried to submit to me that he was already deity using the above (Hebrews 1:8) where I in turn resubmit it was a qoutation from The Psalms where the first part deals with His deity and the second Deals with his humanity it was prophecy you wanna know how I know? because Either The Psalmist isd talking about his coming humanity or there is More persons Of God than just three because you notice he was annointed with the oil of Gladness above His Fellows(Fellow gods?) Hmmm? Now stop your dodging!
The passage is a prophecy of the coming son who was made deity because he had a beggining because he was a real man. Only God has no beggining , but I gave you the passage that states The father wass In the son doing the works and Miracles which he did(Not God the son)
ICD:Despite how CLEARLY THE SON IS DECLARED GOD BY "HE", and:John 17:5 (New American Standard Bible)
How clearly Christ makes it known that it is what had been before the world was, that there was FATHER AND SON, you still can’t grasp that there are multiple, despite the fact they speak together in Heaven and the Son spoke to the Father on Earth.
There is no physical flesh that comes into someone that accepts Christ. There is a WE, a Father and Son by way of the Holy Spirit. A 3 person action at work.God is One and all persons work in concert. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yes the Son does the will of the Father and the Holy Spirit does the will of Christ.
mlculwell:Um IDC, I did’nt say there was! Context my friend! At the time Jesus walked the eart and was speaking he was a real fleshly man who was made the Spirit(Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Col.1:27, Now the Lord is that Spirit 2nd. Cor. 3:170) yet he was made that spirit the scriptures teach(1st. Cor. 15:45, John 14:18, 3:34) and of course you continue to ignore. I(Jesus) will not leave you comfortless, I(Jesus) will come to you.
IDC:
John 16:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ makes it CLEAR there is another HE, the Holy Spirit. That glorifies Him. The Son glorifies the father, John 15:8. 3 persons clearly at work and you’ve got to use everything but scripture to twist the point.
IDC:
You’re missing that Christ notes the Holy Spirit as a separate He and not Himself. "He will glorify Me", Christ did not say "he is me" .
mlculwell:I have missed no such thing! Actually you have missed the total context! Jesus at the time of speaking was a real human man and was not yet made the spirit although he was temporarly transfigured on the mount but later even after his death he told his disciples not to touch him because he had not yet ascended but rather he was in a temporary state. The spirit was to be given him without any limits or measure as John 3:34 teaches and you have not touched top side or bottom of!The he refering to the Spirit AkA as the Holy Spirit was another title of God the father , God is Spirit(John 4:24) Which God??? God is Holy(Psalm 99:9, 1st. Peter 1:15) Which God? There is One spirit(Eph.4:4-6)
ICD:
Because you know it blows aways your Oneness heresy! Genesis 1:26 (New American Standard Bible)
The Father HAS TO BE SPEAKING TO THE SON THERE, THE SON WHO HAD NOT COME IN FLESH, BECAUSE:
Mlculwell: Oh Goody! I am so glad you brought this up, I get to clean up this mess you trinitarains have made with this passage also!
Let’s look at a parrallel Creation passage that every Trinitarian misses, that being (Romans 5:14)
(Adam) Who is the figure( *image*) of him that was to come. (Jesus) He was not back there but when God said "Let Us make man in our image, after our likeness" he was including the coming son in the incarnation in other words perfect God the father who was there and later in the son in the incarnation because the father in him did the works(John 14:10) again I challenge you to find the passage that says it was god the son??? No such thing! Very simple explainantion from the oneness veiw only using scripture where you take again the Glossary lack of study reading.
IDC:
Hebrews 1:2-3 (New American Standard Bible)
All was made BY GOD THROUGH CHRIST. Now I know this is hard for you Oneness folks to grasp, but God does not sit in His own lap! He (Christ) sat down AT THE RIGHT HAND of His Father. They are One, yet it is clear the Son’s position to the Father, sitting on the right, location Heaven.
IDC:
Isaiah 48:16 (New American Standard Bible)
He (Jesus) says He was there and He was sent. And notice the mention of His Spirit. 3 again! The glory Christ speaks of in John 17:5 is what He had previously and you deny the fullness of His deity to say otherwise.You’re really turning scriptures backwards to try and prove a point that is not there.
mlculwell: No sir, You are, I gave you the passages that says How the son of man ascends up where he was before(John 6:62) that being in the plan of God as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Rev,. 13:8) you just make a glossary reading and it makes you look foolish. And that he was the living bread which came down from heaven and his flesh was that bread (which came from heaven) but you forget flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, so the passage is speaking of How God actually provided the flesh from heaven as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.not that he literally came from heaven.
IDC:
John 13:31-32 (New American Standard Bible)
So here God is glorified in Christ. 2 persons, because Christ as I said does the will of His Father. You mentioned Christ declared He had been given all power in Matthew 28:18.Now let me show you why there MUST BE separate persons. Christ had earlier said:
Mlculwell: what you will have to IDC , Is prove how two wills eqauls two persons of God? I acknowledge as a Oneness believer Two wills! One will of the human son that was limited, and One Of God that knew all things…Jesus said: Not My will, but thine Be done. Do you realize what that does to your God? Do you realize How silly that makes your doctrine Look? Sounds like your God is scizophrenic! You have One God with three differnat wills, that is confusion componded! We get lied On about that "scizo" thing all the time, when it is actaully your doctrine, not ours!
IDC:
IDC:
Matthew 24:36 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ makes it clear He does not know the day or hour that He will be sent by the Father to return. You Oneness folks would like to think that Jesus is His own Father and in that verse you’d claim He spoke as a mere man, but that theory does not hold weight against the following, which was said AFTER Christ had all power and was glorified.
Mlculwell: Let’s take a closer look at the weakness of what you submitted and what we get lied on about from you folks to keep you from know ing the truth and dumbed down. "We like to think Jesus is his own father."LOL! We Like to think No such thing! You find anywhere, anytime, I have said such a thing? This is a big misconception because first off you don’t understand what you read from scripture and then you lie on us to continue in your false doctrine Because we teach that God was in Christ reconcilling the world unto himself(2nd. Cor. 5:19) was the trintiy in Christ? No! It was God the father doing the works and reconcilling mankind(John 14:10) Ther was No son Beside or with god In creation so we believe the father existed before the son but yet we can say Jesus created because his deity was none other than God the father Given him without measure. again I challenge you but of Course you ignore it just like everything Else.
IDC:
Acts 1:6-8 (New American Standard Bible)
Again, Christ says it is the Father that fixed the time. He attributes it TO THE FATHER even after resurrection and made no claim to know the time, but remains the Son. Son still the Son and Father still the Father. Christ declares the Holy Spirit will come and they will be His witnesses. Again, Jesus speaks of Himself, His Father and the Holy Spirit.
mlculwell: It is just Like I m said above, you need to ask yourself How you have a stupid person of God who does not Know everything? Why a God that does not know everything is no God at all!
IDC:
2 Corinthians 13:14 (New American Standard Bible)
December 8th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
mlculwell,
Actually, you will be allowed to respond until I say your heresy has been sufficiently displayed for all to see, although I’d prefer that you come to the truth.
You’re so far from sound doctrine, you’re running to Big Bird for doctrine!
You speak of Christ as a mere man, when he was born to a virgin of the Holy Spirit and lived before then, before the foundation of the world. You even admit it yourself when you affirm:
Adam was made IN THE IMAGE. Genesis 1:27. Careful, Adam was made in God’s Image, that means through Christ, Adam was not the Image of God, Christ is the Image.
Colossians 1:15 (New American Standard Bible)
That’s Christ, not Adam. Christ was not created, He was Firstborn, as in WITH GOD from before time began as we know it. Christ is above all creation is the point of that passage. He was not first created, but firstborn of God, With God, From God and God Himself as He’s One With His Father.
Now you realize all was made through Christ, this cannot happen without Christ pre-existing time its self.
But really this all boils down to one tenant, that gives you error rather than truth. You don’t feel Christ actually existed before coming in flesh. Now let me show you that is untrue and you can lie around these scriptures, but if you do so, you will answer for your own actions. (And I’m warning you, you better make your next response good, because it might be your last allowed here.)
John 8:58 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ showing He existed before Abraham was born, not just a "plan", but actually "I am".
They knew what Christ was saying. They were not reading English or Greek, they heard the words and reacted because He made it known He is God and existed before even Abraham.
John 8:59 (New American Standard Bible)
It was clear to them what He said!
We agree that Christ is coming back and we agree that the Father has appointed the Son to judge and the Son has declared:
Revelation 22:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ makes it clear that He certainly did not begin with His life in flesh.
We know that no man has ever seen the Father, just the Son and notice the continued use of the word "God" in John 1:18.
So then we know Christ had to be the one seen in:
Exodus 24:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)
And God eats with them in:
Luke 24:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ was ALWAYS there.
December 8th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
Well all can I say is ;I can’t wait to answer this one and i am still waiting to be kicked in the teeth by you folks.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:50 am
IDC:
Actually, you will be allowed to respond until I say your heresy has been sufficiently displayed for all to see, although I’d prefer that you come to the truth.
ICD:
You’re so far from sound doctrine, you’re running to Big Bird for doctrine!You speak of Christ as a mere man, when he was born to a virgin of the Holy Spirit and lived before then, before the foundation of the world. You even admit it yourself when you affirm:
ICD:
Adam was made IN THE IMAGE. Genesis 1:27. Careful, Adam was made in God’s Image, that means through Christ, Adam was not the Image of God, Christ is the Image.
mlculwell: Yeah, Adam was made in the image of christ, the Bible tells me so! But the scripture teaches Adam was made in the Image of him that was to come(Romans 5:14) the jesus who was incarnated by God the father, the same father who was back at( Gen.1:27) it is funny you don’t deal with any arguments.Look at the next passage?
(1st. Cor. 15:45-47 )The first man Adam was made a living soul The last Adam was M-A-D-E a quickening Spirit(Life giving spirit) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual,(Did you catch that ICD? scripture says he was not first)but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual, the first man Adam was of the earth earthy the second man Adam was the Lord from heaven (Not a third of three persons) His deity that was first was that of God the father, not (God the son!) That is why it said: that was not first which was spiritual because he was made so!
ICD:
Colossians 1:15 (New American Standard Bible)
That’s Christ, not Adam. Christ was not created, He was Firstborn, as in WITH GOD from before time began as we know it. Christ is above all creation is the point of that passage. He was not first created, but firstborn of God, With God, From God and God Himself as He’s One With His Father.
mlculwell: First Off, where did I say he was created? I most certainly did not say such a stupid thing! Oh, you believe since he was "Firstborn " then before everyone else ever existed then he was born. Do you realize How silly that is? Do you realize How contradictory that is to your doctrine? Using that passage does not help your cause one bit! Him being the firstborn of every creature has to do with the plan God had in his foreknowledge that he already knew man would fail so he had the son in veiw for future redemption. that is what was menat by the firstborn of every creature . Eternity and being firstborn cancels out each other!
IDC:
Now you realize all was made through Christ, this cannot happen without Christ pre-existing time its self.But really this all boils down to one tenant, that gives you error rather than truth. You don’t feel Christ actually existed before coming in flesh.
mlculwell: LOL! Yes I realize all was made and predicated through Christ but it has nothing to do with him existing at the time of creation Christ was twofold both all amn and all God at the same time therefore it was his deity that created that of God the father! I asked you to show me it was God the son in the son you did not do it , you cannot do it!
IDC:
Now let me show you that is untrue and you can lie around these scriptures, but if you do so, you will answer for your own actions. (And I’m warning you, you better make your next response good, because it might be your last allowed here.)
John 8:58 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ showing He existed before Abraham was born, not just a "plan", but actually "I am".They knew what Christ was saying. They were not reading English or Greek, they heard the words and reacted because He made it known He is God and existed before even Abraham.
John 8:59 (New American Standard Bible)
mlculwell: I most certainly Believe that passage! And I believe that before Abraham was I am concerning the Lord Jesus Christ but what you forget is that Jesus was twofold Both man and God his deity was that Of God that father Not "god the son!" I gave passages that proved it:(John 14:10 the father that dwelleth in me it is he that doeth the works.becuase the son was powerless..John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing. God was in christ reconcilling the world unto himself.(2nd. Cor.5:19) Who is the *himself *in the son?) you have not offered a single passage to disprove what I have submitted!
IDC:
It was clear to them what He said!We agree that Christ is coming back and we agree that the Father has appointed the Son to judge and the Son has declared:
Revelation 22:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ makes it clear that He certainly did not begin with His life in flesh.We know that no man has ever seen the Father, just the Son and notice the continued use of the word "God" in John 1:18.
mlculwell: Yes, Amen he is the Alpha and Omega! That is concerning his deity (That of God the father.) Now God took to himself a fleshly body in time from eternity, that body,soul, and human spirit, was his only begotten son. so that jesus could claim he was the alpha and Omega and before Abaraham was, I am!
IDC:
So then we know Christ had to be the one seen in:Exodus 24:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)
mlculwell: Yes He was! but that was his pre-existent deity of God the father, Not "god the son," there is no such thing in scripture!
IDC:
And God eats with them in:Luke 24:42-43 (New American Standard Bible)
Christ was ALWAYS there.
mlculwell: what’s you point above ? it absolutley does not prove he pre-existed as a so called "God the son."
December 9th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
mlculwell,
I feel you were granted an opportunity to display your view, although it is false. While you were here your false teaching was refuted using correct scriptures and you were offered correction. You decided to reject it. To retain your false doctrine and reject Christ having always been, not just a plan.
You have forsaken the truth and played on twist of translation to ignore THE WORD is not some simple plan, but existed as Jesus Christ always, With God in the person of Jesus Christ, being with God always, this is how He was firstborn, always being with His Father and both God and One, with the Holy Spirit completing what is the Holy Trinity. Although you’ve played on the Greek, showing you’ve become lost on the various meanings and uses of the Greek term logos, you played equally horrific games with what is in Hebrew scripture, that affirms Christ pre-existed just like the Father and was always With the Father as His Own Person. You can always read to learn when you are ready. You’ve had your time to speak here, so it can be clearly seen, that you don’t know the whole truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You may not feel you’ve been kicked at all, but you are being kicked from this blog, because a heretic only gets a limited amount of time here. If you are the Lord’s and your name in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world, He will in His proper time have you see the truth.