Rekjalhew

November 6, 2007

You Pulpit Pimp Vipers Have Really Done it Now! Here Comes the Government. US Senator Chuck Grassley Investigates Pimps. Will it End in Good?

by @ 1:01 pm. Filed under Questionable Items

Reader Florida Writer informed me of this one and it’s a doozy! 6 Big time pimps in the Religious Industry are now under US Senate scrutiny. (Others sent messages about this, but Florida Writer was first.)

Without Walls Finances Face Senator’s Scrutiny

TAMPA – The ranking member of the Senate Committee on Finance has launched an investigative review of possible misuse of donations made to Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries, along with five other Christian organizations.

Letters were faxed Monday by Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, requesting ministry leaders respond by Dec. 6 to a wide range of questions regarding their personal and organizational finances. The senator expects full cooperation, he said in a statement released by his staff.


Grassley, former chairman of the finance committee, said his requests for information came in response to complaints from the public and news coverage about practices at the six ministries. The allegations involve governing boards that aren’t independent and allow generous salaries and housing allowances for church leaders, and amenities such as private jets and Rolls-Royces.

“I don’t want to conclude that there’s a problem, but I have an obligation to donors and taxpayers to find out more,” he wrote. “People who donated should have their money spent as intended and in adherence with the tax code.”

Besides the Whites, letters went to Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church of Grapevine, Texas; David and Joyce Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo.; Kenneth and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas; Bishop Eddie Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church of Lithonia, Ga., and Creflo and Taffi Dollar of World Changers Church International of College Park, Ga.

And if they don’t tell all, he predicted, Grassley could ask the IRS to step in.

If the churches don’t respond, or don’t respond in full, Grassley could push for a hearing before the Senate Finance Committee.

Other documents in the article:

Senator Chuck Grassley is a Baptist, so he’s not part of some non-Christian group. Still I’m sure some will claim this is an attack against the church. Pimps preach a false gospel, so rather than then being honest representatives of “the church”, the pimps actually are the ones who attack the body of Christ, they attack the church with false gospel.

As I’ve said before, I’m always slow to seek government intervention. I’ve only felt that their misdeeds regarding IRS scrutiny are worthy of government intrusion and it looks like that is the angle Senator Grassely is taking. Gathering information that would relate to abuses of IRS regulations.

But the fact the government is stepping up pressure could have one of 5 possible outcomes:

  1. These 6 pimps are taken down, other pimps do a little to straighten up in fear and that’s the end of it. But the games continue with slight adjustments.
  2. These 6 pimps get a slap on the wrist and all decent churches end up having to endure more scrutiny that costs them in time and effort.
  3. These 6 pimps get a slap on the wrist, other pimps do a little to straighten up in fear and that’s the end of it. The games continue with slight adjustments.
  4. This all plays out as a neat political game and ends with nothing changing at all.
  5. This all plays out as a neat political game and ends with the pimps making another self made voluntary oversight group, that leaves as many questions as groups like the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA). See Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability is an honorable organization?

The bottom line is that government can’t keep a bad corporation in line very well and we know the Sarbanes-Oxley Act has done little, but make more paperwork for corporations. There have been a few show-piece convictions since government went after bad corporations, but that’s about it. Overall everything is the same. I’m not saying US business is as bad as some business affairs in other nations, but little has changed. Don’t expect anything more with government going after pulpit pimps. I expect some combination of the 5 items I noted above, but in the end much won’t change. Unless government is so intrusive on churches that it hampers honest ministry efforts and even then the corruption won’t go away. It will simply change its style a bit.

Hopefully this won’t become an angle to persecute good churches in the future. No matter what government does, pimps will continue like the underground payola that goes on in radio even after government went after that.

Yes this might all go well and be a matter of an avenger of God taking action against evil, Romans 13:3-4. It’s just the history of these things does not make me feel all will go well. May the Lord’s will be done.

For church matters saints need to stand up and contend strongly for the faith. The more saints stand up, it will help real saints to get out from the influence of pimps. Leaving the vipers who work for Satan and those who are Satan’s children dancing together. Because money changing in the Lord’s name is noted in Acts 8:18-23 and even before that. So don’t expect it to go away till the Lord Jesus Christ returns for the church. Jesus died for the sheep, John 10:11. And He will return for His sheep. The pimps and others will burn, because they are NOT SHEEP. They are the goats, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 7:15-23, Revelation 20:10-15, Revelation 21:8. We need saints to speak out for the good of the sheep. The sheep will hear the Lord when he calls them to repentance in their own hearts. The goats will never hear, because God has allowed their ears to be covered, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12. They are not sheep and will never hear the Lord’s voice, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. So regardless of what government does, saints must continue in the gospel for the good of the sheep. Spread the message around the world, for the sheep! Spread the truth and the sheep will hear it.

Ole Anthony was very much involved in seeking government intervention. And this gets Ole’s name out. Maybe he’ll be on TV speaking before Congress. But Ole Anthony is running a cult. And Ole’s influence can be seen in the list of pimps targeted. Notice that TD Jakes is one of the biggest lying pimps of all, but he is not one of the 6 mentioned. Certainly if you’re only going after 6, he would be one of the 6. Ole Anthony has made it known he’s kind of a fan of Jakes’ in some respects, so I doubt when Antony was pressuring Congress about pimps that he mentioned Jakes’ name much. And what about Joel Osteen? How come NOBODY EVER SEEMS TO LOOK INTO WHAT HE’S DOING WITH THE MONEY HE’S ROLLING IN? See TD Jakes and Joel Osteen Enrich Themselves in Jesus’ Name (Video). Not that the 6 listed don’t warrant scrutiny, but the 6 selected don’t include some of the BIGGEST PIMPS taking in the most of all and possibly abusing the most.

So my feelings about all of this are obviously mixed. I feel we need more saints spreading the truth to help the sheep, because government can’t save a soul and government can’t tell anyone the truth of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. To me, this changes nothing for what Christ has called saints to do and we should not sit back thinking government can do what the Lord called the church to do. Obviously God uses government for some things at times and they will play their role, but saints must continue to CONTEND FOR THE FAITH, Jude 1:3.



58 Responses to “You Pulpit Pimp Vipers Have Really Done it Now! Here Comes the Government. US Senator Chuck Grassley Investigates Pimps. Will it End in Good?”

  1. Gxg--G2 Says:

    With your permission of course, Bro IC, here’s the official link to the (news org name deleted) coverage on the issue.

    (Edited by IndependentConservative: Gxg–G2, that is only a shorter version of THE EXACT SAME STORY MAN. Please stop trying to link it.)

  2. Gxg--G2 Says:

    There’s also the possibility that government could end up revoking the tax-excempt status that churches/religious institutions have in light of the abuses many of the mega ministries have done with it to condone misuing excess money behind closed doors. Of course, that would be messed up…….but then again, there’s a reason why God made clear that you don’t play with UNCLE SAM when he comes calling. In the U.S, "CASH IS KING"…..&

    Romans 13Submission to the Authorities  1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
     
    5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

    1 Peter 2:12-17
    12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submission to Rulers and Masters  13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

  3. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg–G2, please consider using the link buttons to create links to the scriptures you references instead of continually pasting them all out.  

    All saints, including as a church are supposed to be paying taxes anyway, so removal of tax exempt status means nothing.  The pimps are going to be pimps, because they are pimps.

    And Ole probably didn’t go after Jakes because he said himself he kind of likes Jakes.  Ole knows Jakes is one of the biggest prosperity pimps, but Ole is a cult leader and there might be more to why Ole avoids calling out Jakes loudly.

    Ole also is one who continually seeks to have government solve something as if government is the key.

  4. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg–G2 – Perhaps I moved to hastily to remove the link. You have my apologies.   While shorter it includes some pimps responding.

    And it has Ole talking about how he cries to the government to fix things.  As if government will make it all better :roll: .

    What if Ole ends up creating a mess that makes us long for what already is, instead of what government might create?

  5. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Not a problem, Brah.  I feel very stupid right now, though, as I have just now realize there are link buttons on the reply box. Concerning the Scripture references, Apologies for not recognizing it sooner.Thanks……

    By the way, please clarify what you meant when you said "What if Ole ends up creating a mess that makes us long for what already is, instead of what government might create?

  6. IndependentConservative Says:

    Joyce’s numbers (linked in the article that I linked in my previous comment above, article link provided by Gxg-G2) look well warmed over to me.  I mean you can’t see exactly what she takes in and all the "ministry" is really a tool for her own self promotion.

    So she keeps the self promotion going AND gets to skim a nice chunk off the top for herself.

    So even if this pimps make the numbers look good, government can’t stop their false doctrines.  And Ole’s doctrine is jacked up too.  Excuse me, given it’s recent history I don’t see government as the solution to problems, but often the creator of new ones.

  7. Gxg--G2 Says:

    I’m a bit torn, though, Brah. In my understanding, when God’s Word seems to indicate that the government’s been given to bring terror/fear into the hearts of those who do wrong, that seems to be a "go" regarding this paticular situation.

    Bump the doctrine for a second…….even the things they do simply from a MORAL Standpoint seem in need of government intervention (i.e. TAX FRAUD, FALSE ADVERTISING, etc)……..

    Bout’ time these guys stop recieving a "free pass" from government simply becuase they’re in the religious realm.

  8. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Thank you, by the way, for being willing to adress the issue.

  9. IndependentConservative Says:

    By the way, please clarify what you meant when you said "What if Ole ends up creating a mess that makes us long for what already is, instead of what government might create?

    I mean, what if this causes government to force all church organizations to register with them under some NEW group (or expansion of current government groups) and imposes on church doctrine MORE than is currently done?  More than telling church groups that they must tell people they must pay taxes, which is done currently.  I mean this could lead to OLE guiding the hand of GOVERNMENT and creating something that is ugly.

    AND Ole is not one who is beyond taking government funding himself.  He’s done it in the past (for a housing effort of his) and might leverage all this so he has more money to command himself.  Not that Ole retains it all for himself, but he’s a control freak.

  10. IndependentConservative Says:

    I agree, government’s role is to tear down evil and the pimps certainly are evil.  I’m just questioning if that will happen in this case.  Given we know not every action of government is "good".  I mean it all works out for God’s glory, but it could bring in an era of potential persecution for saints.

    China keeps some tight controls on church groups.  I don’t think we want it to get to that point here.

    What’s better?

    1. All groups operating freely.
    2. All groups under tight government restrictions.

    With church or so-called church groups it’s been closer to #1 and we might be moving closer to #2.  The move towards #2 is never a good one.  Government is to ensure fair activity in business trading, but church activity is a bit dicer to regulate and it might eventually hamper ministry.

    I think if government takes a strong hand in this, you’ll see EXACTLY what I’m saying once it happens.

    I’d rather saints contend for the faith and do what the Lord called us to do, instead of calling in government.  I guess it all depends how this plays out.  Even if the pimps keep to IRS guidelines, they’d get away with MUCH DIRT and many charities have.  Eddie Long milked a charity for millions already and government didn’t bat an eye, because it was found to be OK under man’s law.

  11. rehabbedchurchgoer Says:

    I hope they decide to change the tax code and require full public disclosure of church and ministry business via form 990 like anybody else.  That would weed out some greedy preachers from the ministry because they couldn’t hide their enrichment of themselves in the church books.  They would probably just become for-profit, privately held corporations and their silly followers wouldn’t care. 

    It would be nice to see an end to church owned luxury items.  There is no good religious or charitable purpose for that. 

    I know a lot of people may see this as a government intrusion into church affairs, but Christians need to just focus on doing good. 

    If this investigation is done properly, It shouldn’t be a surprise to see some of these people lose their 501 c 3 status. 

  12. truthintheselastdays Says:

    These guys are as good as sunk! I know that the investigation is still young, but the repercussions from this could be felt for quite some time.

    Grace and peace,
    blackreformingkid.wordpress.com

  13. rehabbedchurchgoer Says:

    Persecution is not going to happen.  These people need to get re-elected, remember.  The conservative/fundamentalist voting block is  HUGE, as we have seen in recent elections.  Plus, Christianity is a huge money-maker, as sick as that may sound.  We are a capitalistic society and where the pocketbook is, governments heart is also.

    Christianity is exploding.  It’s not the variety I like, but none-the-less, Christians have a lot of power in the US.

    Also, we are all free as private citizens to communicate the gospel.  We don’t need Mega-churches or tax exempt status to do right.

    I also think it is interesting that a self-professed Christian and Republican is heading the investigation. 

  14. KyleNYC Says:

    All it’s gonna do is give the TRUE church a black eye, man.
    But IC, you raise an interesting point.  Look who’s being looked into:Bishop Eddie "Steroids" Long 
    David and Joyce "Evil Eyes" Meyer
    Creflo "I’M LOADED!!!" and Taffi Dollar
    Kenneth "Citation X and probable Freemason" & Gloria Copeland
    Benny "Dove One" Hinn
    Yet no Osteen or Jakes.   Hmm……

  15. IndependentConservative Says:

    KyleNYC – No TBN either.

    rehabbedchurchgoer  – "where the pocketbook is, governments heart is also."  :lol: .

    Well God’s plan will go till it’s designed end.  Hopefully this government effort will take out the bad and not trouble the good.

  16. rehabbedchurchgoer Says:

    I know how you feel about the black-eye thing.  But the best thing to do is stand apart and be different – you know, love your neighbor,etc.  As long as these prosperity pimps are running around we have a perpetual black eye.

  17. KyleNYC Says:

    IC,

    "No TBN either."

    That’s because they’ve gone "Catholic".  I’ve been watching the "Preys-U-pon" for the last two days now and they’re offering very Catholic themed and oriented trinkets and figurines.  At of course, exorbitant prices.

    Maybe Paul "unnatural affections, shhh" Crouch has something on Ole Anthony?

  18. Yvette Says:

    When I first saw this at aol I knew you and others were going to post this. I can’t say I’m surprised just what the heck took so long for some kind of investigation to start. I don’t think anything will be done seriously until after the 2008 elections, if they do anything at all. Perhaps this is a shakedown to tell them either tell the people what we want you to tell them or else?  Either way I don’t see the investigation heating up until after the elections. Besides they brought this on themselves anyway so I don’t have much pity for them. 
    On a side note. I was flipping through the channels yesterday and noticed that paul crouch looked horrible. oh well.

  19. IndependentConservative Says:

    Maybe Paul "unnatural affections, shhh" Crouch has something on Ole Anthony?

    Very possible.  Maybe he faxed TD a copy :D ?  But really the way Ole is just too kind to Jakes while tearing at the bit for other makes me wonder.  Because the lavish life of TD is certainly in line or greater than all the other pimps and Osteen is probably the same.

    You know if you use the button titled "Indent", it makes a really nice quote box for when you quote what others say ;) .

  20. DL Foster Says:

    Whew, let the spanking begin.
    Its about time. These people have gone too far for too long.

  21. KyleNYC Says:

    OK, you got me.  Feelin’ stupid… ;-)

    Hip to the technology, jus’ bein’ (mentally) lazy…

  22. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Enough of this nonsense. Can someone please answer this buring question I’ve had for ages:
    HOW DO YA’LL POST THOSE SMILEY FACES in your posts???

  23. IndependentConservative Says:

    See this page for information about how to make smilies.

    I’ve found if you do more than one at a time it’s best to put a few spaces between them.

    I tried a plugin here to help with placing smilies in comments, like the other formatting tags, but it was not working out well and I had to remove it.

  24. KyleNYC Says:

    HOW DO YA’LL POST THOSE SMILEY FACES in your posts???

    Plant a "seed" and I’ll tell you all about it. :-)

    On a serious note, and in response to IC’s original question, Will it end in good?  Short answer: no.  Pimp-nation will dig it’s heels in, claim this is persecution and use it to get MORE money!!!  Gah-ron-teed!!!  You heard it here first, Benny Hinn’s gonna curse somebody!!!
    However, if anyone were to "rollover" and turn "State’s Evidence", who do you think it would be?  My  money’s on the aformentioned Mr. Hinn.  I get the feeling that if things get hot, he’ll crumble faster than those paper mache outfits he wears. 
    That is unless of course Hinn and his cohorts jet out of the nation on their "chariots" and seek refuge in a country that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the U.S…and where they’ve been stashin’ the loot, if you know what I mean.

  25. IndependentConservative Says:

    And KyleNYC – They’ll probably be sure to press for more LOVE OFFERINGS, the money they can stick RIGHT IN THEIR OWN POCKETS!

    paper mache outfits

    :D :lol:

  26. stan Says:

    Thank you for posting this information, IC. In my opinion, this is an encouraging development from the government.  I plan on making our small Bible study and fellowship aware of this action and any follow-up. I wonder how long it will take from December 6th to hear whether there are any responses from these "ministries."

  27. IndependentConservative Says:

    Stan, they ALL will respond.  The question is, will the numbers they provide be honest?  If they all provide honest numbers then I guess we’ll see from there.  But with people that lie about God I don’t put anything past them.

  28. Praiser4Life Says:

    I agree with KyleNYC. Pimp-nation will live on! It’s about time these things are being investigated, unfortunately it’s being done by the government. I agree with you IC, this could set a very dangerous precedent for the rest of the body of Christ. I do believe that this type of action could eventually lead to the persecution of Christians who are actually doing good with the money that they are receiving. I’m not surprises that Jakes and Osteen are not on there. You know the old saying, "birds of a feather flock together". The world considers them they’re own.

  29. Ann Says:

    I.C. another great post. I just saw a report about this on CBS. I wonder what will come out of the investigation.

  30. stan Says:

    As to the honesty of the numbers, IC, I hope the investigators have a skeptical view so that they use forensic auditing of the numbers they get.

    I work for tax accountants. They have a remark about  information supplied for tax returns sometimes: "It doesn’t pass the smell test." It’s a sense you get by working with  information long enough. Good auditors have a sense if numbers are lying, and it gets them going after the truth. Hopefully, they’re not going to take all the information they get initially as, well, pardon the term, the Gospel Truth.

    If these ministries have been operating under the delusion of never being caught for their misuse of public trust, then they would not be too careful in covering their tracks consistently enough to avoid detection.

    The problem is the psychological one, that is, if the government is unwilling to appear too adversarial in their investigation and lets some discrepancies go without penalty. You would hope, though, that if they find glaring misappropriations or evasion of reporting personal income from all ministry-related sources, then they will impose stiff penalties.   We’ll see.

    As was said, the government is the Minister of God. The Lord may certainly use them to crack down on this sort of evil.  After all, Jesus said that by casting the Jezebel onto a bed of pain, that the churches would see Him as the searcher of hearts and that He eventually gives to everyone according to their deeds. It is a terrible thing to force Him into that position of judging severely because of stubborn sin.

  31. art123 Says:

    IC, I agree with you that no matter how many corrupt ministries the government goes after, there will always be more pimps, especially pimps in training. You and I witness the rise and fall of the Bakkers so there’s no stopping them until our Lord returns.

  32. KyleNYC Says:

    Hmmm, was just thinking: this will be just the excuse the gov’t. needs to check the books of ALL churches…especially those preaching hate, i.e., the true biblical stance on sin, which, as we all know, hardly ever gets preached on in these ministries, except for when you don’t give enough…

  33. stinastina Says:

    My response to the investigation: Hallelujah !! I am so glad I found this site. I was beginning to think everyone bought into Eddie & Creflo.  I will be praying the truth comes out !

  34. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Perhaps it’s just me, but in regards to government involvement into the religious realm and the fear that it’ll lead to persecution for the church, this seems to be where the RUBBER HITS THE ROAD……because for any of us to champion correct doctrine/practice & yet shun the consequences that often come from that….consequences that the EARLY CHURCH in Acts dealt with….may be indicative of what we truly believe regarding what Christianity is all about.

    Is Persecution something that the church should run from? What was the pattern in the Book of Acts for the church/believers when government persecution came as a result of pushing for making certain that correct behavior in the church took place at all costs? Was there EVER A TIME IN HISTORY WHERE PERSECUTION HINDERED/STIFFLED THE GROWTH OF THE CHURCH?

    Moreover, for those who’ve studied the concept of HOUSE CHURCHES, why do you think that the house churches seem to be so much STRONGER (both in correct/sincere belief & practice of living out the faith) in countries like China/others where government persecution is EXTREME?

    The government’s there ALLOW CHURCHES TO EXIST/thrive with FREE ENTERPRISE, though many of the churces condoned by government teach thingS CONTRARY TO THE FAITH while those which wish to stay doctrinally pure seem to have to  pay the price ( and for information on what I mean, I’d suggest reading the book " The Heavenly Man" by Brother Yun, in which he describes how he recieved more persecution from churches where incorrect doctrine was preached/the state approved because he taught the TRUTH, even if it wasn’t politicallty CORRECT. Also, go here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Self_Church

         Again, I think we all should seriously begin to reconsider some things and where our faith truly lies. If government intervention should take place, as Romans 13 seems to give room to, for the abuses these mega-ministries have committed……& if that leads to possible restricition/abuse in the future, should we really be running from it or worried?

    Mark 10:29-31

    2 Timothy 3:10-13
    Paul’s Charge to Timothy  10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the PERSECUTIONS I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus WILL BE PERSECUTED, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

  35. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Yes,Bro IC, ….I used the links buttons for the Scripture References, though the last one on II Timothy 3:10-13 got away. To note, though, is this post too long??

  36. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg–G2 – regarding comment #34 and you knew I’d say something before you typed it.

    Is Persecution something that the church should run from?

    Not that the church is ever to compromise on doctrine or trying to share the gospel, but to flee persecution is what Christ suggested be done in Matthew 10:23.  We stand on truth, but that does not mean you sit to have your head beaten in if you can escape.  If the Lord provides a means of escape, then flee.  And Paul was provided ways out many a time,  like noted in 2 Corinthians 11:32-33.  Which is why he notes the Lord rescued him those times, although ultimately Paul had to take a head chopping.  And compared to some others he died via a less painful method.  And that head chopping took him into eternal life, so even with that he won!

    Regarding China, the house churches and Brother Yun’s book titled The Heavenly Man.  Now you know when you brought this up over at Melvin’s blog we were at odds over it, as was Melvin with you and it’s no different here.

    So I’ll just repeat here what Melvin told you there:

    (MN: To the degree that he depends on dreams and visions, he is not depending on and trusting God. He is depending on and trusting experience. A Pentecostal Christian in China will be persecuted. But that doesn’t make their pentecostalism valid. It does, however, validate God’s gracious power in our lives, even when we don’t have it right. )

     

    You and Yun are into people claiming they saw figures like Adam and what not.  YUN DID NOT SEE ADAM AND I’M NOT BUYING HIS BOOK TO READ ABOUT WHAT HE SAW OF HIS OWN IMAGINATION.

    As God through Christ by way of the Holy Spirit had Paul to write:
    Colossians 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

    18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

    19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

    If the persecution comes then it comes, but if we’re hiding in a basement and you tell me you just saw Adam, I’m going to tell you to get some sleep before our next run.

    If we are to be persecuted, so be it.  And that is what I’ve been trying to get across to you from the beginning.  Exactly what KyleNYC has noted in comment #32.  What some cheer being done to pimps now might become an angle to attack good saints tomorrow.

    The government could lock up these pimps tomorrow and their followers would create new pimps to pay their atonement and tabernacle offerings to.  This is why I’m not all cheery about government intervention.  If they violated IRS codes, fine, take them down.  But if churches paid taxes in respect of Romans 13:5-6 that would not be a bad thing, it’s what the church is supposed to do. 

    I’ve got nothing against house churches and understand real saints must do what they need to in China, but assembly size does not confirm sound doctrine, whether big or small.

  37. Gxg--G2 Says:

    If I may say, 2 things, Brah…..

    1.) When it talks about persecution in Matthew 10:23, it’s not saying that persecution is a bad thing to be feared (which is where I’m coming from). Obvious is the fact that Christ warned the disciples against PREMATURE MARTYDOM….for they were to leave before the persecution got too great, as did the early church when persecution happened elsewhere (Acts 8:1-4). But the persecution that took place was truly beneficial, as it forced believers out of their homes in Jerusalem, and along with them the Gospel to whomever they met. Many other benefits can come about from it, but that’s for another discussion.

    2.) The entire issue with Pentalcostalism, Dreams, vision, is enough in itself for an entire posting so I’ll leave that alone to write on my blog, but I would like to mention that it’s incorrect to say that Yun/others are into claiming they saw figures like Adam/what not (as well as the citing of Colossians 2:18-19, as in my understanding it was dealing with an entirely different situation/context).

    Prophecy/visions are all about TESTABILITY (seeing whether or not it comes to pass), as well as CONFORMING to the principles of what’s known about the Lord/His Ways through Scripture (1 Corinthians 14:29-32,) ….so the analogy is flawed from the get-g0, as no KNOWS THE EXACT DETAILS OF WHAT ADAM/JESUS LOOKS LIKE & THEREFORE IT WOULD BE ERROR for ANYONE TO EVEN TRY, or SAY "I know WHAT ADAM LOOK LIKE, & SINCE IT DOESN’T CONTRADICT THE WORD, it must be true!!"….or TO SAY ANYONE WAS EITHER 100% CERTAIN of what they saw. No one (at least in the Charismatic circles I know of) even comes close to believing dreams/visions in that sense….but of course there are many variations within the Charismatic movement.  Also, if dissagreable, cool…..Even godly theologians, such as Macarther/Piper & others differ on the issue, with many solid/valid arguments….so there’s room here too.

    I don’t wish to be contentious, for this is YOUR BLOG, your gig…..&  out of respect for you & the blog, I’ll drop the issue.   Proverbs 17:14
    Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out.

  38. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Please Note, though, that the only reason I I didn’t bring it up for discussion on "dreams/prophecy" (sa side issue not dealing with the post, which was never my intention…..& which is probaly why you said "and you knew I’d say something before you typed it.").I brought the book up was because it had much FACTUAL INFORMATION regarding the persecution of the underground church in China that CANNOT BE IGNORED. To ignore that simply because of the fact I don’t believe in one’s theological stance is an ad-hominim stance…….. 

        

  39. IndependentConservative Says:

    We agree that all works to God’s glory.  If we are persecuted, the Lord’s will be done.

    We’ve done cycles on the dream/vision matter before.  I think Colossians 2:18-19 is very relevant and dealing with context such as this.  What I need to do is to adhere to scripture and focus on Christ.  The claims of some vision or dream are not something I need to concern myself over, they are NOT scripture and not as sure as scripture, 2 Peter 1:16-21 is also applicable.  Because he who has the vision often embraces it on the level of scripture when it is not.  So what I need is scripture, not someone’s "visions".

    Revelation is what we bring from scripture, scripture is the SURE WORD and anything else less reliable, stick to the sure word.  Scripture is complete, the mysteries have been revealed.  No one is to add more Revelation 22:18.

    The only reason we have so many claiming these visions and dreams all over the place today is because of the Azusa incident.

  40. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Regarding  what KyleNYC has noted in comment #32 and the statements that What some cheer being done to pimps now might become an angle to attack good saints tomorrow, I must admit that I don’t really see where the danger’s at.

        True that this could become something which the government could possibly use  against Christians in an effort to CONTROL…..but in all honesty, it seems to me as if that risk is always INHERENT with government regardless of circumstance.

    There’s a myriad of issues regarding things in which government could possibly to their advantage (and for practical/RECENT examples, go here:

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/07/12/protesters-arrested-for-disrupting-first-hindu-senate-prayer/

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/31/funeral.protest/index.html?iref=newssearch

    Those were just 2 examples, admist a MYRIAD of others, in which people claiming the name of Christ were clearly in the wrong…..but does the risk of government’s intervention mean that government should simply keep "quiet" about it and deal with the other things we all have no problem requiring intervention in (i.e. murder, theft, plagerism, extortion, etc)?

    If Church government were exercised today, it may’ve made a difference, where people could simply be "silenced"/disciplined as it was in the NT (I Corinthians 5 )….but in a time where the church is no longer at the level for that to  take place, keeping crazy situations under control is not as simple anymore. I understand the need for saints to rise up & deal with the issue by educating others/correcting the problems within the churc……but it still seems to me that has happened far too late in the game, and more extreme measures are needed.

  41. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg–G2 – You are greatly confusing something here.  Speculation on what may happen does not mean we seek to stop government from doing what it deems necessary, so long as that does not intrude on doing as the Lord commands.

    We all want the government’s efforts to take down the pimps and that’s all.  To look at the other angles makes perfect sense.  BECAUSE MANY OF US HAVE WATCHED THE GOVERNMENT CONTINUALLY BREAK THINGS WORSE THAT IT ATTEMPTED TO FIX.  It’s the literal history of modern US government.

    You mention that government intervention is not so bad.  Well in the end whatever the government does, it’s not going to stop this false doctrine and we know this.  So ultimately the government’s efforts will not address the core issue because they cannot and will not.  Once Sarbanes-Oxley was introduced for corporations, some claimed it would not be so bad and even a good thing.  Well it costs corporations lots of money, which means increases in the price you pay for most everything.  Because ultimately YOU pay.   While it’s done little with the issue of corporate corruption.  Just made more paperwork. (This was a transition we who worked in the before and after know all too well.)

    When government desires involvement, you need to consider this government’s track record and the fact you continually pay more in your own time when meaningless red tape is created.   Certainly if that became the case with church matters we’d want to prevent it (not avoiding something like paying taxes, but prevention of meaningless headaches that might hamper efforts to engage in ministry, or worse) and remaining aware of this ahead of time is something all of us watching government operate for some time have found to be the best policy.  Because we are allowed involvement in influencing government, we do well to watch it from all angles.

    The resolution for these issues with pimps is saints following SCRIPTURE.  Trying to restore some old commune system is not going to resolve the issues of people not adhering to scripture.  1 Corinthians 5 is very well implemented TODAY by real saints.  We don’t associate with and reject those who are false.

  42. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Cool, Brah…..& thanks for clarifying. It’s just that I’ve been involved in discussions before where people who did speculation did ONLY THAT, to the point where they were against sesking to stop government from doing what it deems necessary

  43. Gxg--G2 Says:

    There are two more comments of mine I made last night waitning moderation, & If you could simply ignore/not post the previous two posts I made, sir, seeing that they were too long, I’d appreciate it. Trying to stay within the limits of your blog.

    What I was meaning to say is that it’s still hard not to see government as something beneficial to get involved. Regarding religion, when one who’s been known to be an enemy takes on the appearance of a friend, it’s much more easier to relate…..& there have been recent instances where it seems government got involved in matters of Religion & things seemed as if one should’nt have a problem. The issue with government being involved teaching the Bible in public schools/dealing with the injustice of allowing one religion to be promoted (i.e. evolution, humanism, etc) while greatly denying the teaching of the other would be one good example, IMHO:

    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/12/teaching_the_bible_increases_at_us_public_schools

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1601845,00.html

  44. Gxg--G2 Says:

    I’d be most interested in getting your feedback onthere have been recent instances where it seems government got involved in matters of Religion & things seemed as if one should’nt have a problem. The issue with government being involved teaching the Bible in public schools/dealing with the injustice of allowing one religion to be promoted (i.e. evolution, humanism, etc) while greatly denying the teaching of the other would be one good example, IMHO: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/12/teaching_the_bible_increases_at_us_public_schoolshttp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1601845,00.html

  45. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Is there any way in the future that it could be made possible for commentors to take back comments once they’re sent?

  46. IndependentConservative Says:

    Is there any way in the future that it could be made possible for commentors to take back comments once they’re sent?

    Nope, choose your words carefully :D .

    Here the admin has a level of luxury with comments that you’ll never have :) .  And it might be like that at your blog too?

    I have no comment regarding the other matters you raised.  I think my prior comments are sufficient.

  47. rehabbedchurchgoer Says:

    Now Paula Whites new partner, Rick Hawkins, is in trouble.  The media has reported on "multiple affairs" with married women in the church as well as sexual harassment.

    I wonder what it is going to take.  I think these people really have fooled themselves and think they are invincible "gods", deserving of riches, and that can’t be touched no matter what they do. 

    Kenneth Copeland has responded by calling the actions an "iniquity". 

  48. rehabbedchurchgoer Says:

    Someone even admitted it!  That these people probably wouldn’t be in the ministry if money wasn’t in it!Tampa Bay Tribune -

    There’s no formal meetings to speak of," said Alick Clark, a longtime Without Walls board member from Acton, Calif. He said nearly all board meetings are conducted by telephone.Clark wasn’t happy about news of Grassley’s investigation."I’m sorry to see all of this happening," he said. "How many of these guys would be in ministry if there was no money in it? Not many, I can tell you."

  49. IndependentConservative Says:

    That only proves many are not in it for ministry, but money.

  50. Gxg--G2 Says:

    In case no one heard yet, Creflo gave a more in-depth response to the inquiries of Grassley (man after my own heart. lol)….and it turns out that they’re in defense of the way the ministry spends it’s funds:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/07/national/main3464730.shtml

  51. Yvette Says:

    rehab..(Kenneth Copeland has responded by calling the actions an "iniquity". ) What on earth?! Iniquity? Does this man think he is God?! Oh yeah, he does. 

     

  52. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Someone brought up the point earlier about OLD ANTHONY profiting from this and using the media coverage/his involvement in exposing the financial working of the mega ministries to his advantage.

    Honestly, after seeing the amount of coverage he has reciecieved, I’m starting to get the point.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/06/cbsnews_investigates/main3462147.shtml

    IMHO, his actions are very similar to what you’d see in a dummy corporation/buisneess, for they’d use legtitmate means as a cover for  any of the wrong theyy do behind closed doors….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_corporation

    "Many organized crime operations have substantial legitimate businesses, such as licensed gambling houses, building construction companies, trash hauling services, or dock loading enterprises. These front companies enable these criminal organizations to launder their income from illegal activities. As well, the front companies provide plausible cover for illegal activities such as drug trafficking, smuggling, and prostitution." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_organization )

     

    As long as the media continues to credit his contributions to Senator Grassely’s actions, the abuses Old Anthony’s guilty of will continue to thrive/go unoticed, but prayerfully the tables will turn and it ‘ll be ,ade clear that NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW, regardless of the ways in which they’ve helped to ENFORCE IT.

  53. IndependentConservative Says:

    Ole Anthony abuses his authority in terms of crimes against the Lord far more than anything, such as abusing money in violation of anything like IRS laws.  I think when it comes to Ole standing up to a full IRS audit, he’d probably come out smelling cleaner than a rose.  Because Ole’s style of abuse is not in taking funds to put himself in big time riches.

    Ole’s abuse is spiritual, of those in his assembly and the type of thing government won’t touch and honestly has no jurisdiction over at all.

    But Ole being able to move the hand of government might result in legislation (and Ole wants some) that would please Ole.  It could get to a point where the tenants of Ole’s cult are influencing more than his small band of followers.  Right now Ole would like legislation that prevents anyone from making promises on TV that can’t be guaranteed.  Such as saying you’ll receive 100 fold blessing if you send me money now.  Sounds reasonable enough, but it’s the sort of thing that would be ripe for government control of legitimate ministries too.  What about the minister who promises homosexuals will go to hell and quotes 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

    If Ole continues to have his way, he’ll go beyond simple potential IRS violations, into control of the words coming from mouths.  Ole probably won’t be the one to have government going after talk about homosexuals, but Ole’s desires to control statements could be used as the angle to do that. How does the good minister guarantee to government that sinners will inherit hell fire if government can’t respect the tenants of a faith? It just gets really dicey yet ripe for attacks on real saints.

    I’m not trying to have government tell these pimps what they can say on TV.  I’m trying to help the sheep see the wolf and turn off the TV themselves.  Because even if government controls the mouth of the man promising 100 fold if you send him cash on TV, you’ll see underground groups pop up that will do the same and the same misguided sheep will support them.

    Given Ole’s issues, I just don’t like him being the guy with the ear of government.  This possible IRS abuse investigation is fine, but we know Ole is not a man to be trusted given the abuse he engages in within his own little cult.

    All that can really help those being abused by the pimps or Ole is them coming to know the truth themselves.

  54. SoliDeoGloriaFella Says:

    Independent Conservative,

    I hope this all turns out for the best. You can call me pessimistic, or one with little faith; but if the U.S. Government is using hard-earned tax-payer dollars to pay for abortions… I dont see them getting this "televangelist spending" case right either. Im just following the trends bro.

    Oh, buddy, absolutely loved your capital punishment post. THX alot.

  55. art123 Says:

    In reference to the six minstries that the government is after. These are no new pimps-in-training. They’ve been in the game for over twenty years. However when old pimp empires fall, another one rises up.

  56. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Edited by IndependentConservative: Gxg–G2, given this is a flurry of information I have not reviewed (only skimmed) and makes various allegations, I’m not going to let it post here. I honestly can’t say I stand by what you’re claiming. (Although the 180 you’re doing is funny because now you’re more skeptical than me :D :lol: .) But people who want to read it can click the link on your account name and read your blog for themselves.

  57. Gxg--G2 Says:

    My bad, Brah…….but that’s cool.
     
    Meant to say earlier that not everything in the videos I’m 100% in agreement with simply cause they said. I do my own research too…… But they did have alot factual things neither heard or brought up/thought of often in the media…….enough to make you simply go "hmmmmm…" (lol)

  58. IndependentConservative Says:

    Melvin Jones offers his take on the situation.

Independent Conservative - Copyright 2008 - Copyright Notice

[powered by WordPress.]

51 queries. 0.642 seconds