So many milk toast Christians and pulpit pimps have been asked point blank by Larry King if Jews, Muslims and others can get into Heaven if they don’t accept Christ (including himself). So many have CRUMBLED when asked the question! Spreading a lie and denying the truth of Christ. But we see that John MacArthur refuses to check his spin at the door when he goes on CNN. See how MacArthur tells the truth, STRAIGHT UP!
John MacArthur Explains what Happens when You Die
THE TRUTH!
Again I say, when the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ stood before Jews or anyone not believing on Christ, they DID NOT tell them that they could get into Heaven via some other means.
Acts 4:7-12 (New American Standard Bible)
7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,
9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead–by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
11 “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Larry King tried to press the issue, MacArthur stood firm on the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ!
Happens when You Die? John MacArthur On Larry King
Yes Larry, Jesus is the ONLY WAY and we KNOW IT!
The bottom line is this, some people who claim the Lord’s name love themselves and their ego being fed by men more than loving the sinner they speak to enough to tell the truth! And so they trample the truth of Christ for their own self serving goals. By definition of their actions, they are putting themselves before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who is none other than Jesus Christ and the ONLY means to salvation. Now watch a lying chump in action below.
Joel Osteen on the gospel
The chump crumbles!
A Hindu in India DOES NOT worship the One True God. The people in India who love God are the ones who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
So who is Joel Osteen speaking for when he claims people who deny Christ love God? I just gave you the answer above.
Come on Kyle. You know the Roman Catholic doctrine claims the lie that you can be saved by works. The YouTube user who uploaded these videos has several of the Catholics giving their usual response. Those are from different nights. This video shows some of the others and that YouTubers has lots more where that came from.
On another note, I have a brother who lives in Long Beach, CA, and who listens to The Michael Savage* Show" fairly often and recently he claims Savage has been saying that in order for Christians to really win this "war" what they really need to do is…wait for it…wait for it…it’s coming: PREACH JESUS!!! And this is coming from Michael "Universalist" Savage! I guess donkeys really do speak!
*By the way, IC, your "nom de plume" wouldn’t happen to be inspired Mr. Savage, would it?
Don’t know when he said it, but my brother says it’s been in the recent past. He really torqued me out last November ‘06 when he said, and I’m paraphrasing, "…if Christians were to take off their mental burqa and accept EVOLUTION(!) as the science that it is, maybe then people would be more accepting of it." Those weren’t his exact words, but that was the gist of it. I haven’t listened to him at all since then, but I get’s the feeling I may have to take a listen tonite. BTW, if he did say that, the bullseye on his back just changed color to to neon RED.
I’ve heard him say similar many times over. I don’t listen to Savage for information to help in my walk with Christ, but you’ve got to get information about who might blow you up from somebody and in other respects I agree with him on many political matters.
Actually I’m more offended when he takes time to read from the wittings of Confucius and acts like it’s gospel. I’m also offended that when he reads scriptures he only reads Old Testament, for obvious reasons, but I’m glad he’s reading something from the scriptures and to find someone who will do it on air in secular radio is rare.
Still, when it comes to secular news the whole lot has issues that could be named. I’ll keep Savage.
I.C. great post, I have seen John MacArthur on Larry King before, he knows how to stand on the word. Thank you for comparing the 2 clips. You can see the difference between him and Joel. What a big difference!
On a minor note, Good thing you clarified on the Savage issue by the way. At first, when you mentioned Michael Savage, I went on wikipedia to investigate the "WONDER YEARS" T.V show, seeing that the main star in that one had a last name by the name of Savage ……NO JOKE (lol, lol, lol)
I believe that MacArthur brought out an interesting point that the bible always have been proven fact, despite what the gainsayers had to say. Jesus is the only way to salvation and thats that. Olsteen’s comment is whether you’re a Hindu or any other religion, if you embrace Jesus just a little bit, you can go to heaven. However, he states that he cannot judge. It is obvious that Olsteen is not standing firm on the word of God and if I was a member of Lakewood Church and had doubts about him, it would be time for me to go.
I’m watching O’Reilly, he was interviewing pastor and presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee and posed the same question King posed to MacArthur. Sad to say, Mike hemmed and hawed a bit and didn’t give a straight answer like MacArthur did. I guess winning office is more important than the Truth.
Hey IC. I’ve been reading your posts for awhile and glad to see how you defend the faith and your beliefs by using Scripture. Great job! I’ve read a lot of MacArthur and heard him preach many times. As much as I appreciate his teaching, I still disagree with him on some things. His comments that you’ve posted are worthy and your comments back up the fact that man must believe in Jesus to be saved. It seems to me though, we still only tell part of the story to nonbelievers and leave them with nothing more than there is no hope for them to find salvation. Due to "seeing in part" and men who have been given certain truths/revelation/knowledge like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Kierkegaard, Wesley, etc, have (I believe) not explained the purpose of God and His plan for salvation for all men. Scripture makes it clear that Jesus died to save all men…and as Paul says, "especially those who believe". We tend to ignore their is an order in which all men will be saved…and Paul also tells us that too. From before the foundation of the world, Christ Jesus was ready to draw (really the word means to "drag") all men to Himself…and we all know that "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!"…each in his own order. (when and how that takes place is up to God) MacArthur recognized that all will be resurrected to face God, he just believes that eternally some will face separation from God.
Anyway IC, you’re doing a great work here and I am enjoying your posts. Look to Jesus and welcome to Nashville.
MIC, actually I (we) moved from the Nashville area a little while ago, but that is something I’ll address and my current location in a future post.
You are wrong. All WILL NOT be with the Lord for all eternity. There is a difference between God’s children and Satan’s children, all are NOT God’s children. All are God’s creations, not His children. Read 1 John 3.
Universalism is heresy and all are not going to spend eternity with God.
The Lord Jesus Christ did not lie when he said: Matthew 7:21-23 (New American Standard Bible)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
There are not people "in the Lord" that He does not know. Evildoers are not redeemed because they forsake the gift of salvation and Jesus will not allow them into Heaven. They get judgment and damnation.
Paul notes in 1 Corinthians 6, a litany of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. They are not going to Heaven for eternity. He notes that those who accepted Jesus Christ are the ones who are washed and justified, not those who live in sin and refuse the Lord Jesus.
Also see Matthew 13, where Jesus speaks of how sinners will be separated by the angels from the righteous. This is not something that the sinner will do by choice, but Jesus will order be done.
In John 10, Jesus explains who are and who are not His sheep. Who will receive eternal life and who will not. Also see John 8, where Jesus notes some are children of the evil one, the devil, based on their unbelief and actions that result from that. Those who keep His Word (Trust in Him) will never see death.
When I was in Nashville I did visit a Worldwide Church of God (WCG) assembly (I’ve mentioned that denomination here before) where a man named Jonathan Stepp was saying exactly what you’re trying to say MIC and it’s all a form of Unitarian Universalism. It is untrue and heresy. I did offer Stepp the truth as well as included a WCG organization leadership contact in the exchange, so he’d know what Stepp is teaching in Nashville. Not sure if you’re part of Stepp’s assembly, Stepp himself, or just in agreement with him, but when in Nashville that’s where I saw this untruth being preached. Stepp informed me that there is a bit of an uprising within the WCG to his view and that’s sad to see given all that the WCG came from in the past.
It’s as basic as John 3:16. Those who beleive on Christ will not perish. This does not mean that those who do not will be given eternal life. Those who the Lord calls to Himself are His Sheep, God’s children, given to Him by the Father. Satan’s children go to hell and the lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15.
Some are looking at John 12:32 and being misled. Drawing all men, means people beyond just the Jews. It does not mean that all will at some point have everlasting life. It means that Christ is Lord for more than just the Jews. As I’ve outlined, only those Jew or Gentile who accept Christ will be saved. In that same chapter (John 12), He goes on to tell those who don’t accept Him that they will not have The Light. He does not go on in that chapter (John 12) to tell them that they who reject Him will inherit the kingdom of Heaven or anything good.
It is true that every knee will bow, but Philippians 2:9-11 also makes it clear that all will not be in the kingdom of Heaven when they are bowing. Those who reject the Lord will be damned and no scripture shows otherwise. Only twists on selected verses removed from their proper context brings about untruth
and heresy. The same kind of heresies that men like Robert Schuller are trying to drive the church towards.
Jesus Christ is Lord of all, but this does not mean that all will spend eternity with Him and no scripture says such. Only those who accept Him will be with Him.
IC, don’t know and never heard of Stepp and have never set foot in the WCG. Have an idea who they are, but don’t know what they believe. Yes, you are not the first to point out all these verses and due to your ministry, I really don’t want or need to go back and forth to point out why I’m not a universalist, Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour…and true universalism does not believe that. My point is that once you go past the apostle Paul (who pretty much argued the point that Jesus was Lord and Saviour of all mankind, and taught complete restoration of all things) …we go many years later to the likes of Augustine and a slew of others who started to create doctrines that now have become the understanding of most denominations of our day.
Sorry you moved from Nashville, but welcome to Tennessee! Keep up your great work. Look to Jesus…and I will too.
MIC, Paul never said all would have the kingdom of Heaven though. Not all individual souls. Salvation is now free to all people who believe, but this does not mean all will have everlasting life. Paul never said it, Christ never said it, scripture never says it. Otherwise the verses I presented you would not exist in scripture.
This is why God through Christ by way of the Holy Spirit had Paul to write 1 Corinthians 6, which makes it clear beyond all doubt that some WILL NOT make it into Heaven. I don’t know who has lead you into this heresy, but God did not have Paul to repeat statements about who would not inherit the kingdom of God for us to claim otherwise. You are confusing Paul’s writings in scripture about restoration of all groups of people. By assuming it means everyone individually will eventually be in Heaven with eternal life, this is not true.
You see the verses I presented and claim well Paul said things would be restored. You are wrongly dividing scripture, by lowering the weight of scriptures regarding judgment and eternal damnation for sinners. If you can read 2 Thessalonians 1 in full and maintain your position regarding this, you embrace a false doctrine after having been shown the truth.
IC, of course, we would have to establish what/where is the "kingdom of God" that Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 6. Which Jesus said was among us, in us, coming…and 2 Thess. 1 uses the words "being destroyed forever" and I would assume you know that the Greek word that most translations use for the word "forever" is the word "aion" which when translated properly, means an "age" where there is a beginning and an end. So, then we come to the problem of 1 Corinthians 15; Colossions 1:19-20; Acts 3:21; 2 Cor.5:14-21; 1Cor. 3:15; 1 Tim. 4:10; 1 John 2:2; Heb 2:7-9; Eph. 1:21-23; Rev. 5:8-14; and so on. Heresy is to think that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to save mankind/creation? Heresy is to think that God had/has a plan to redeem all His creation? Heresy is to think that God is Love? We are all quick to judge from what we know and observe and believe…I don’t judge you for being an Independent conservative who falls in line with the mainline denominations…because like Paul, I believe that even when any of us who are obviously blinded in part, choose to preach Christ, it is a good thing. Keep preaching. Keep seeking. Keep reading and studying God’s Word.
MIC - You’re sounding as bad and I mean just as bad as those pushing the false prosperity doctrine.
Heresy is to deny the truth of the gospel, which you are doing although in a more subtle effort than most it is still heresy.
In 20 of 21 English translations of scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is translated to show EVERLASTING or ETERNAL destruction, but you’ve run with the lesser respected use of the term by trying to toss out "age".
And MIC, trying to claim that you have the correct Greek translation is not going to work, given it’s known here that many Greek terms have varied meanings. For the use of the term the appropriate context is eternal. You’re spreading heresy to tell anyone otherwise.
You feel Satan and Hitler will both one day dance with us in God’s Kingdom, correct?
And what about the Trinity? Do you even believe God is triune in nature? I’ve just found that you who toss out the Universalism heresy often are anti-Trinity as well.
IC, I believe in the Trinity. As far as Hitler goes…he who is without sin, cast the first stone. As far as Satan goes…In Matt. 25:41 Jesus spoke of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." Man is also purified in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil or his angels.
If what you are saying about aionion in 2 Thess. 1:9 is to mean "everlasting or eternal"…then I guess Revelation 11:15 has been mistranslated, or, Paul is teaching false doctrine when he tells the Corinthians that Jesus must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet, then when all things are subjected to him, he (Jesus) subjects himself to the Father so God may be all in all.
You may or may not have read the scriptures I gave in the last post…but it is evident that most don’t want to comment on these scriptures. It’s hard to comment on "in Adam all die and in Christ all will be made alive"…unless we can change the rules of what "all" means too.
If you don’t want to look up the Greek and Hebrew words, the Young’s Literal Translation (1898) is probably one of the most respected translations by scholars because they believe it to be one of the most accurate in translation.
Here is how Young’s translated 2 Thess. 1:7-9 "…and to you who are troubled - rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power, in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall suffer justice-destruction age-during- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, when He may come to be glorified in his saints…"
Revelation 11:15 (Young’s Literal) "And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!"
You said "Heresy is to deny the truth of the gospel" What is the Gospel? Is it not "Good News" God came to man and died for him…rose and conquered death to take our place…and will come again? Isn’t that the Gospel? How is it that we can say belief in denominational church doctrines is the Gospel? Does belonging to a church save you? Does tithing pay the ransom for membership? Does taking the Lord’s supper once a week or once a month become Gospel? Does baptism save you? and does it become a better gospel if you were immersed? or believing or not believing in all will be saved? How does your gospel (good news) translate to those who are perishing?
You can call me a heretic or anything else you wish to call me. I will have to refuse to stop preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ, who is the Saviour of all mankind.
MIC, as Peter noted, people like yourself receive the epistles of Paul and make a mockery of them, 2 Peter 3:14-16. Don’t take no one else responding as a complement to yourself. It’s because you’ve proven yourself a heretic and made a poor case, not because of any point you’ve proven. Also, it’s a given your time here would be short, because it is known I allow you to speak to expose your heresy, then send you on your way. But I won’t let your insults go further. This blog is not a platform for heresy, but rather a tool to expose it.
So you have your walking papers for your false doctrine and insults of others who don’t care to devote a moment to your heresy.
YLT is not respected as most accurate and the only that you can utilize to support your twisted heresy.
As I said 20 of 21 and you’ve got the one, YLT that you attempt to make heresy with. But even with this translation of scripture, we see judgment will bring hell and unquenchable fire for those who are found in sin, Mark 9:42-50 (YLT). And notice that judgment will not be kind to one who causes the little ones in Christ to stumble. That translation also notes the judgment of the Lord from the words of John mentioning fire that is unquenchable, Luke 3:16-17 (YLT).
I will note for the benefit of anyone who may not know, your abuse of 1 Corinthians 15:22 is that it does not show all will have everlasting life, but rather all will be made alive for what will be a final judgment. Paul even noted this when he had to stand before Felix in Acts 24:15. From Adam all must face a physical death and in Christ all will have a resurrection of the body, which is when each stands judgment. That judgment is what will bring eternal damnation for the wicked, the unquenchable fire and this is what the heresy of claiming all will have eternal life fails to admit. Such heresy leaves some to feel they can willfully sin forever that grace will abound, but those who continue to willfully sin and forsake Christ will not be saved. Hebrews 10:26-31 (New King James Version)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
MIC, you were allowed to comment here for one reason only. To expose the lie you teach and offer correction. You are banned from here, but you still have a chance to repent to the Lord Jesus for the false gospel you teach.
For those not familiar with the heresy of Universalism and want to know why it’s flat out heresy and gain more insight based on sound scripture based teaching, you can read more here. Ever since homosexuals wanted to bypass 1 Corinthians 6:9 and enter Heaven while embracing sin in this life, this particular heresy is growing in popularity.
That site also gets all into the Greek that MIC has totally wrong.
Anyone else who continues to embrace this heresy, don’t even try to comment.
Smart move regarding the premptive strike, Brah……for the same thing happened on the discussion forums at CARM awhile back, with the Universalists beginning to undermine Christian Evangelism because they kept continually saying that ALL were going to Heaven & thus giving an excuse to those who were unbelievers……..& the amount of stress/attack that Matt Slick took from them was overwhelming.
IC said, MIC, you were allowed to comment here for one reason only. To expose the lie you teach and offer correction. You are banned from here, but you still have a chance to repent to the Lord Jesus for the false gospel you teach.
Thank you! Like you, I only allow this type of person to speak for a couple of rounds, and then they are history. Too many baby Christians reading blogs and they are impressionable. The last thing they need is to have someone like "MIC" confuse them and lead them astray.
I have to give it to ole lucifer…he surely is bold to send his henchmen up in here. Hasn’t he noticed that fase doctrine is not allowed here by now? Gee!
MIC said,I believe in the Trinity. As far as Hitler goes…he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
Oh, thanks for telling me. I guess I’ll just go out and join Debauchery Row since there obviously is no punishment for sin. So in your world, people can murder, maim, torture, abuse children, etc. and it’s all okay with God, huh?
MacArthur’s wrong about the damned being separated from the presence of God in Hell. On the contrary, they are IN HIS PRESENCE:
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
1 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
al - You think MacArthur, Calvin and probably I am all heretics. Just come out and say it.
We all know who will be doling out the punishment. The idea is that they won’t be in the Kingdom of Heaven with the gift of eternal life.
And there is scripture to support saying it in that manner ("separated"), such as (and frankly I don’t care that you dislike all but the 1611 KJV): Hebrews 7:26 (New American Standard Bible)
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
Matthew 7:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
22"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Honestly Al, you cause division for some of the most nonsensical reasons and you should stop it.
For those who did not know, Al has made an entire video about this and several other inside debates that he’s decided to make a mission out of and brand people heretics that understand election, call anyone promoting English translation of scripture other than the 1611 KJV promoters of heresy and so on.
Al, after dealing with one contentious individual today, I really don’t care to spend tonight with you. I’m spending it with my family and not going to bother with how you will press this. I’ve given everyone a link to your YouTube page for those who are interested, but it’s time you also are put away from here. Because you cause division over matters that need not be made division over.
After dealing with the Universalist, I’m just not in the mood. Farewell Al, you are my brother in Christ, but you’re not providing productive conversation.
Al, you need a little help brother. God is present everywhere but the wicked are often described as being OUT of His Presence. There is a simple explanation. You will not that I used the KJV for ya ,so the devil doesn’t confuse us *wink*
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Lev 22:3 Say unto them, Whosoever [he be] of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I [am] the LORD.
2Ki 13:23 And the LORD was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet.
2Ki 24:20 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Jer 52:3 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, till he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.
Jon 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
Jon 1:10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.
The problem comes in when we don’t look at ALL that the Scripture says about His Presence. We see His Presence causes destruction to the wicked here, but it is the source of blessing to the righteous.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore. Psa 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.
Psa 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence.
A contradiction?? No. The Presence of God is used in 2 ways, as a blessing to the righteous and as a curse to the wicked. This does NOT refer to whether or not He can BE everywhere (which He is), but rather to the outworking of His blessing or wrath on individuals. When the Bible speaks of being cast out of the Presence of the Lord it’s referring to being cast from that blessing, it doesn’t mean there are places God is not present. The Word translated "presence" is the Word for "face". God removes the wicked from before His FACE (which is a source of blessing to His people), not into some realm where God cannot be found.
So, God DOES cast the wicked away from His Presence (face) though He is still present everywhere.He is present in hell with the wicked, but His face is turned from them in anger.
God can be present with people, but in different ways. He can be present as the Loving Father to one man, yet present as the God of Wrath to another man, (in which case the wicked is cast out from His Presence as the loving Father). He is THERE to both men, but not PRESENT in the same way (one a Presence of wrath,one a Presence of blessing).
The Presence of God doesn’t change really…………it just produces different results depending upon who is standing in that Presence. For the righteous in Christ, His presence results in fullness of joy. For the wicked, His Presence produces judgment and wrath.
It’s like sunshine. The same sun that melts a wax vessel, hardens a clay vessel. Is the sun different for the wax than for the clay?? Nope…………same sun. Why does the same sun produce different results on each vessel?? Because the sun is acting on vessels made from different materials. It’s what the vessels are MADE OF that determines what the sun will do to it.
The same with God’s Presence (face). Why does it become the source of pleasure and blessing to the righteous, but the source of wrath and anguish to the wicked?? Because the righteous and the wicked are MADE FROM different material. The righteous are new creations in Christ, the old things that could not withstand the Presence of God have passed away. The unregenerate man is still a product of sin, and therefore the Presence of God is destructive to him rather than a source of blessing because sin cannot endure the Presence of God. So the Presence of God becomes a blessing to one man and a curse to the other depending upon what each man is made of,though the Presence itself never changes.
So,those cast out of God’s Presence are those cast from the blessing His face provides the righteous. It has NOTHING to do with whether God is imminent everywhere.
All can see Mike Huckabee taking a sly DUCK when asked about Christ in this video. If he feels all who don’t accept Christ will go to hell, than why is he talking about "if" someone finds God another way? Basically if Bill O’Reilly (a Catholic) is satisfied with your answer when he asks you about Heaven and Christ, you probably gave the WRONG ANSWER. If Mike feels others will burn in hell, he should love them enough to tell them the whole truth without mincing words. I mean he claims to have been a church leader!
Like I said, I’m leery of all who leave ministry for politics.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:50 pm
IC,
Do you have the link where I can hear what the others said? I wonder what the Priest said regarding this?
Kyle
October 31st, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Come on Kyle. You know the Roman Catholic doctrine claims the lie that you can be saved by works. The YouTube user who uploaded these videos has several of the Catholics giving their usual response. Those are from different nights. This video shows some of the others and that YouTubers has lots more where that came from.
You better be saving the material while you can.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Why can’t Joel and TD just say what the Word says, that’s what MacArthur did.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:14 pm
You’ve got to be a man of The Word to speak The Word.
October 31st, 2007 at 4:16 pm
On another note, I have a brother who lives in Long Beach, CA, and who listens to The Michael Savage* Show" fairly often and recently he claims Savage has been saying that in order for Christians to really win this "war" what they really need to do is…wait for it…wait for it…it’s coming: PREACH JESUS!!! And this is coming from Michael "Universalist" Savage! I guess donkeys really do speak!
*By the way, IC, your "nom de plume" wouldn’t happen to be inspired Mr. Savage, would it?
October 31st, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Did Savage say this in the last week? What day exactly did he last say it?
He’s talking about Jesus. Those Liberals are really going to try and shut his mouth now. Liberals +!
I explain why I use the handle Independent Conservative in my about page.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Don’t know when he said it, but my brother says it’s been in the recent past. He really torqued me out last November ‘06 when he said, and I’m paraphrasing, "…if Christians were to take off their mental burqa and accept EVOLUTION(!) as the science that it is, maybe then people would be more accepting of it." Those weren’t his exact words, but that was the gist of it. I haven’t listened to him at all since then, but I get’s the feeling I may have to take a listen tonite. BTW, if he did say that, the bullseye on his back just changed color to to neon RED.
October 31st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
I’ve heard him say similar many times over. I don’t listen to Savage for information to help in my walk with Christ, but you’ve got to get information about who might blow you up from somebody
and in other respects I agree with him on many political matters.
Actually I’m more offended when he takes time to read from the wittings of Confucius and acts like it’s gospel. I’m also offended that when he reads scriptures he only reads Old Testament, for obvious reasons, but I’m glad he’s reading something from the scriptures and to find someone who will do it on air in secular radio is rare.
Still, when it comes to secular news the whole lot has issues that could be named. I’ll keep Savage.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:27 pm
I.C. great post, I have seen John MacArthur on Larry King before, he knows how to stand on the word. Thank you for comparing the 2 clips. You can see the difference between him and Joel. What a big difference!
October 31st, 2007 at 10:54 pm
On a minor note, Good thing you clarified on the Savage issue by the way. At first, when you mentioned Michael Savage, I went on wikipedia to investigate the "WONDER YEARS" T.V show, seeing that the main star in that one had a last name by the name of Savage ……NO JOKE (lol, lol, lol)
October 31st, 2007 at 11:34 pm
I believe that MacArthur brought out an interesting point that the bible always have been proven fact, despite what the gainsayers had to say. Jesus is the only way to salvation and thats that. Olsteen’s comment is whether you’re a Hindu or any other religion, if you embrace Jesus just a little bit, you can go to heaven. However, he states that he cannot judge. It is obvious that Olsteen is not standing firm on the word of God and if I was a member of Lakewood Church and had doubts about him, it would be time for me to go.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:35 pm
I’m watching O’Reilly, he was interviewing pastor and presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee and posed the same question King posed to MacArthur. Sad to say, Mike hemmed and hawed a bit and didn’t give a straight answer like MacArthur did. I guess winning office is more important than the Truth.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Any man that leaves full time ministry for the sake of full time politics ALWAYS gets a leery eye from me
November 1st, 2007 at 9:29 am
Hey IC. I’ve been reading your posts for awhile and glad to see how you defend the faith and your beliefs by using Scripture. Great job! I’ve read a lot of MacArthur and heard him preach many times. As much as I appreciate his teaching, I still disagree with him on some things. His comments that you’ve posted are worthy and your comments back up the fact that man must believe in Jesus to be saved. It seems to me though, we still only tell part of the story to nonbelievers and leave them with nothing more than there is no hope for them to find salvation. Due to "seeing in part" and men who have been given certain truths/revelation/knowledge like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Kierkegaard, Wesley, etc, have (I believe) not explained the purpose of God and His plan for salvation for all men. Scripture makes it clear that Jesus died to save all men…and as Paul says, "especially those who believe". We tend to ignore their is an order in which all men will be saved…and Paul also tells us that too. From before the foundation of the world, Christ Jesus was ready to draw (really the word means to "drag") all men to Himself…and we all know that "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!"…each in his own order. (when and how that takes place is up to God) MacArthur recognized that all will be resurrected to face God, he just believes that eternally some will face separation from God.
Anyway IC, you’re doing a great work here and I am enjoying your posts. Look to Jesus and welcome to Nashville.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:42 am
Dr. MacArthur once again hits the ball out of the park with the Word!
November 1st, 2007 at 10:06 am
Great Post IC!
We need more men like Dr. MacArthur willing to stand for the truth!
November 1st, 2007 at 10:30 am
@14
MIC, actually I (we) moved from the Nashville area a little while ago, but that is something I’ll address and my current location in a future post.
You are wrong. All WILL NOT be with the Lord for all eternity. There is a difference between God’s children and Satan’s children, all are NOT God’s children. All are God’s creations, not His children. Read 1 John 3.
Universalism is heresy and all are not going to spend eternity with God.
The Lord Jesus Christ did not lie when he said:
Matthew 7:21-23 (New American Standard Bible)
There are not people "in the Lord" that He does not know. Evildoers are not redeemed because they forsake the gift of salvation and Jesus will not allow them into Heaven. They get judgment and damnation.
Paul notes in 1 Corinthians 6, a litany of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. They are not going to Heaven for eternity. He notes that those who accepted Jesus Christ are the ones who are washed and justified, not those who live in sin and refuse the Lord Jesus.
Also see Matthew 13, where Jesus speaks of how sinners will be separated by the angels from the righteous. This is not something that the sinner will do by choice, but Jesus will order be done.
In John 10, Jesus explains who are and who are not His sheep. Who will receive eternal life and who will not. Also see John 8, where Jesus notes some are children of the evil one, the devil, based on their unbelief and actions that result from that. Those who keep His Word (Trust in Him) will never see death.
When I was in Nashville I did visit a Worldwide Church of God (WCG) assembly (I’ve mentioned that denomination here before) where a man named Jonathan Stepp was saying exactly what you’re trying to say MIC and it’s all a form of Unitarian Universalism. It is untrue and heresy. I did offer Stepp the truth as well as included a WCG organization leadership contact in the exchange, so he’d know what Stepp is teaching in Nashville. Not sure if you’re part of Stepp’s assembly, Stepp himself, or just in agreement with him, but when in Nashville that’s where I saw this untruth being preached. Stepp informed me that there is a bit of an uprising within the WCG to his view and that’s sad to see given all that the WCG came from in the past.
It’s as basic as John 3:16. Those who beleive on Christ will not perish. This does not mean that those who do not will be given eternal life. Those who the Lord calls to Himself are His Sheep, God’s children, given to Him by the Father. Satan’s children go to hell and the lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15.
November 1st, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Some are looking at John 12:32 and being misled. Drawing all men, means people beyond just the Jews. It does not mean that all will at some point have everlasting life. It means that Christ is Lord for more than just the Jews. As I’ve outlined, only those Jew or Gentile who accept Christ will be saved. In that same chapter (John 12), He goes on to tell those who don’t accept Him that they will not have The Light. He does not go on in that chapter (John 12) to tell them that they who reject Him will inherit the kingdom of Heaven or anything good.
It is true that every knee will bow, but Philippians 2:9-11 also makes it clear that all will not be in the kingdom of Heaven when they are bowing. Those who reject the Lord will be damned and no scripture shows otherwise. Only twists on selected verses removed from their proper context brings about untruth
and heresy. The same kind of heresies that men like Robert Schuller are trying to drive the church towards.
Jesus Christ is Lord of all, but this does not mean that all will spend eternity with Him and no scripture says such. Only those who accept Him will be with Him.
November 1st, 2007 at 1:28 pm
IC, don’t know and never heard of Stepp and have never set foot in the WCG. Have an idea who they are, but don’t know what they believe. Yes, you are not the first to point out all these verses and due to your ministry, I really don’t want or need to go back and forth to point out why I’m not a universalist, Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour…and true universalism does not believe that. My point is that once you go past the apostle Paul (who pretty much argued the point that Jesus was Lord and Saviour of all mankind, and taught complete restoration of all things) …we go many years later to the likes of Augustine and a slew of others who started to create doctrines that now have become the understanding of most denominations of our day.
Sorry you moved from Nashville, but welcome to Tennessee! Keep up your great work. Look to Jesus…and I will too.
November 1st, 2007 at 2:10 pm
MIC, Paul never said all would have the kingdom of Heaven though. Not all individual souls. Salvation is now free to all people who believe, but this does not mean all will have everlasting life. Paul never said it, Christ never said it, scripture never says it. Otherwise the verses I presented you would not exist in scripture.
This is why God through Christ by way of the Holy Spirit had Paul to write 1 Corinthians 6, which makes it clear beyond all doubt that some WILL NOT make it into Heaven. I don’t know who has lead you into this heresy, but God did not have Paul to repeat statements about who would not inherit the kingdom of God for us to claim otherwise. You are confusing Paul’s writings in scripture about restoration of all groups of people. By assuming it means everyone individually will eventually be in Heaven with eternal life, this is not true.
You see the verses I presented and claim well Paul said things would be restored. You are wrongly dividing scripture, by lowering the weight of scriptures regarding judgment and eternal damnation for sinners. If you can read 2 Thessalonians 1 in full and maintain your position regarding this, you embrace a false doctrine after having been shown the truth.
November 1st, 2007 at 5:31 pm
IC, of course, we would have to establish what/where is the "kingdom of God" that Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 6. Which Jesus said was among us, in us, coming…and 2 Thess. 1 uses the words "being destroyed forever" and I would assume you know that the Greek word that most translations use for the word "forever" is the word "aion" which when translated properly, means an "age" where there is a beginning and an end. So, then we come to the problem of 1 Corinthians 15; Colossions 1:19-20; Acts 3:21; 2 Cor.5:14-21; 1Cor. 3:15; 1 Tim. 4:10; 1 John 2:2; Heb 2:7-9; Eph. 1:21-23; Rev. 5:8-14; and so on. Heresy is to think that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough to save mankind/creation? Heresy is to think that God had/has a plan to redeem all His creation? Heresy is to think that God is Love? We are all quick to judge from what we know and observe and believe…I don’t judge you for being an Independent conservative who falls in line with the mainline denominations…because like Paul, I believe that even when any of us who are obviously blinded in part, choose to preach Christ, it is a good thing. Keep preaching. Keep seeking. Keep reading and studying God’s Word.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:11 pm
It was refreshing to see a minister bold enough to stand toe-to-toe with the truth and not be afraid offending.
We need more like him.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:42 pm
MIC - You’re sounding as bad and I mean just as bad as those pushing the false prosperity doctrine.
Heresy is to deny the truth of the gospel, which you are doing although in a more subtle effort than most it is still heresy.
In 20 of 21 English translations of scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is translated to show EVERLASTING or ETERNAL destruction, but you’ve run with the lesser respected use of the term by trying to toss out "age".
And MIC, trying to claim that you have the correct Greek translation is not going to work, given it’s known here that many Greek terms have varied meanings. For the use of the term the appropriate context is eternal. You’re spreading heresy to tell anyone otherwise.
Stop preaching till you get it right!
November 1st, 2007 at 7:58 pm
And MIC, let’s make sure you’re well understood.
You feel Satan and Hitler will both one day dance with us in God’s Kingdom, correct?
And what about the Trinity? Do you even believe God is triune in nature? I’ve just found that you who toss out the Universalism heresy often are anti-Trinity as well.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:37 am
IC, I believe in the Trinity. As far as Hitler goes…he who is without sin, cast the first stone. As far as Satan goes…In Matt. 25:41 Jesus spoke of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." Man is also purified in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil or his angels.
If what you are saying about aionion in 2 Thess. 1:9 is to mean "everlasting or eternal"…then I guess Revelation 11:15 has been mistranslated, or, Paul is teaching false doctrine when he tells the Corinthians that Jesus must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet, then when all things are subjected to him, he (Jesus) subjects himself to the Father so God may be all in all.
You may or may not have read the scriptures I gave in the last post…but it is evident that most don’t want to comment on these scriptures. It’s hard to comment on "in Adam all die and in Christ all will be made alive"…unless we can change the rules of what "all" means too.
If you don’t want to look up the Greek and Hebrew words, the Young’s Literal Translation (1898) is probably one of the most respected translations by scholars because they believe it to be one of the most accurate in translation.
Here is how Young’s translated 2 Thess. 1:7-9 "…and to you who are troubled - rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power, in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall suffer justice-destruction age-during- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, when He may come to be glorified in his saints…"
Revelation 11:15 (Young’s Literal) "And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!"
You said "Heresy is to deny the truth of the gospel" What is the Gospel? Is it not "Good News" God came to man and died for him…rose and conquered death to take our place…and will come again? Isn’t that the Gospel? How is it that we can say belief in denominational church doctrines is the Gospel? Does belonging to a church save you? Does tithing pay the ransom for membership? Does taking the Lord’s supper once a week or once a month become Gospel? Does baptism save you? and does it become a better gospel if you were immersed? or believing or not believing in all will be saved? How does your gospel (good news) translate to those who are perishing?
You can call me a heretic or anything else you wish to call me. I will have to refuse to stop preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ, who is the Saviour of all mankind.
November 2nd, 2007 at 3:54 am
MIC, as Peter noted, people like yourself receive the epistles of Paul and make a mockery of them, 2 Peter 3:14-16. Don’t take no one else responding as a complement to yourself. It’s because you’ve proven yourself a heretic and made a poor case, not because of any point you’ve proven. Also, it’s a given your time here would be short, because it is known I allow you to speak to expose your heresy, then send you on your way. But I won’t let your insults go further. This blog is not a platform for heresy, but rather a tool to expose it.
So you have your walking papers for your false doctrine and insults of others who don’t care to devote a moment to your heresy.
YLT is not respected as most accurate and the only that you can utilize to support your twisted heresy.
As I said 20 of 21 and you’ve got the one, YLT that you attempt to make heresy with. But even with this translation of scripture, we see judgment will bring hell and unquenchable fire for those who are found in sin, Mark 9:42-50 (YLT). And notice that judgment will not be kind to one who causes the little ones in Christ to stumble. That translation also notes the judgment of the Lord from the words of John mentioning fire that is unquenchable, Luke 3:16-17 (YLT).
I will note for the benefit of anyone who may not know, your abuse of 1 Corinthians 15:22 is that it does not show all will have everlasting life, but rather all will be made alive for what will be a final judgment. Paul even noted this when he had to stand before Felix in Acts 24:15. From Adam all must face a physical death and in Christ all will have a resurrection of the body, which is when each stands judgment. That judgment is what will bring eternal damnation for the wicked, the unquenchable fire and this is what the heresy of claiming all will have eternal life fails to admit. Such heresy leaves some to feel they can willfully sin forever that grace will abound, but those who continue to willfully sin and forsake Christ will not be saved.
Hebrews 10:26-31 (New King James Version)
MIC, you were allowed to comment here for one reason only. To expose the lie you teach and offer correction. You are banned from here, but you still have a chance to repent to the Lord Jesus for the false gospel you teach.
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:20 am
I.C. thanks for how you handle MIC. I read what he had posted, he is in error. He was twisting words.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Reading along with MIC, checking other translations, hitting Strongs, and reading eveything over in its full-context here…. hmmm..
Hey IC, you ever seen that book "Rick Warren’s Bible Study Methods"?
*glances at MIC’s posts again*
I rest my case
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:47 pm
For those not familiar with the heresy of Universalism and want to know why it’s flat out heresy and gain more insight based on sound scripture based teaching, you can read more here. Ever since homosexuals wanted to bypass 1 Corinthians 6:9 and enter Heaven while embracing sin in this life, this particular heresy is growing in popularity.
That site also gets all into the Greek that MIC has totally wrong.
Anyone else who continues to embrace this heresy, don’t even try to comment.
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Smart move regarding the premptive strike, Brah……for the same thing happened on the discussion forums at CARM awhile back, with the Universalists beginning to undermine Christian Evangelism because they kept continually saying that ALL were going to Heaven & thus giving an excuse to those who were unbelievers……..& the amount of stress/attack that Matt Slick took from them was overwhelming.
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:41 pm
IC said, MIC, you were allowed to comment here for one reason only. To expose the lie you teach and offer correction. You are banned from here, but you still have a chance to repent to the Lord Jesus for the false gospel you teach.
Thank you! Like you, I only allow this type of person to speak for a couple of rounds, and then they are history. Too many baby Christians reading blogs and they are impressionable. The last thing they need is to have someone like "MIC" confuse them and lead them astray.
I have to give it to ole lucifer…he surely is bold to send his henchmen up in here. Hasn’t he noticed that fase doctrine is not allowed here by now? Gee!
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:50 pm
MIC said, I believe in the Trinity. As far as Hitler goes…he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
Oh, thanks for telling me. I guess I’ll just go out and join Debauchery Row since there obviously is no punishment for sin. So in your world, people can murder, maim, torture, abuse children, etc. and it’s all okay with God, huh?
Dude, please!
November 2nd, 2007 at 7:33 pm
MacArthur’s wrong about the damned being separated from the presence of God in Hell. On the contrary, they are IN HIS PRESENCE:
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
1 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Not a comforting thought for the lost.
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:57 pm
al - You think MacArthur, Calvin and probably I am all heretics. Just come out and say it.
We all know who will be doling out the punishment. The idea is that they won’t be in the Kingdom of Heaven with the gift of eternal life.
And there is scripture to support saying it in that manner ("separated"), such as (and frankly I don’t care that you dislike all but the 1611 KJV):
Hebrews 7:26 (New American Standard Bible)
Matthew 7:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
Honestly Al, you cause division for some of the most nonsensical reasons and you should stop it.
For those who did not know, Al has made an entire video about this and several other inside debates that he’s decided to make a mission out of and brand people heretics that understand election, call anyone promoting English translation of scripture other than the 1611 KJV promoters of heresy and so on.
Al, after dealing with one contentious individual today, I really don’t care to spend tonight with you. I’m spending it with my family and not going to bother with how you will press this. I’ve given everyone a link to your YouTube page for those who are interested, but it’s time you also are put away from here. Because you cause division over matters that need not be made division over.
After dealing with the Universalist, I’m just not in the mood. Farewell Al, you are my brother in Christ, but you’re not providing productive conversation.
November 2nd, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Al, you need a little help brother. God is present everywhere but the wicked are often described as being OUT of His Presence. There is a simple explanation. You will not that I used the KJV for ya ,so the devil doesn’t confuse us *wink*
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Lev 22:3 Say unto them, Whosoever [he be] of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I [am] the LORD.
2Ki 13:23 And the LORD was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet.
2Ki 24:20 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Jer 52:3 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, till he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.
Jon 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
Jon 1:10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.
The problem comes in when we don’t look at ALL that the Scripture says about His Presence. We see His Presence causes destruction to the wicked here, but it is the source of blessing to the righteous.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.
Psa 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.
Psa 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence.
A contradiction?? No. The Presence of God is used in 2 ways, as a blessing to the righteous and as a curse to the wicked. This does NOT refer to whether or not He can BE everywhere (which He is), but rather to the outworking of His blessing or wrath on individuals. When the Bible speaks of being cast out of the Presence of the Lord it’s referring to being cast from that blessing, it doesn’t mean there are places God is not present. The Word translated "presence" is the Word for "face". God removes the wicked from before His FACE (which is a source of blessing to His people), not into some realm where God cannot be found.
So, God DOES cast the wicked away from His Presence (face) though He is still present everywhere.He is present in hell with the wicked, but His face is turned from them in anger.
God can be present with people, but in different ways. He can be present as the Loving Father to one man, yet present as the God of Wrath to another man, (in which case the wicked is cast out from His Presence as the loving Father). He is THERE to both men, but not PRESENT in the same way (one a Presence of wrath,one a Presence of blessing).
The Presence of God doesn’t change really…………it just produces different results depending upon who is standing in that Presence. For the righteous in Christ, His presence results in fullness of joy. For the wicked, His Presence produces judgment and wrath.
It’s like sunshine. The same sun that melts a wax vessel, hardens a clay vessel. Is the sun different for the wax than for the clay?? Nope…………same sun. Why does the same sun produce different results on each vessel?? Because the sun is acting on vessels made from different materials. It’s what the vessels are MADE OF that determines what the sun will do to it.
The same with God’s Presence (face). Why does it become the source of pleasure and blessing to the righteous, but the source of wrath and anguish to the wicked?? Because the righteous and the wicked are MADE FROM different material. The righteous are new creations in Christ, the old things that could not withstand the Presence of God have passed away. The unregenerate man is still a product of sin, and therefore the Presence of God is destructive to him rather than a source of blessing because sin cannot endure the Presence of God. So the Presence of God becomes a blessing to one man and a curse to the other depending upon what each man is made of,though the Presence itself never changes.
So,those cast out of God’s Presence are those cast from the blessing His face provides the righteous. It has NOTHING to do with whether God is imminent everywhere.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
spark - I just saw video of that interview you saw of Mike Huckabee. His answers regarding the faith were most disappointing.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
All can see Mike Huckabee taking a sly DUCK when asked about Christ in this video. If he feels all who don’t accept Christ will go to hell, than why is he talking about "if" someone finds God another way? Basically if Bill O’Reilly (a Catholic) is satisfied with your answer when he asks you about Heaven and Christ, you probably gave the WRONG ANSWER. If Mike feels others will burn in hell, he should love them enough to tell them the whole truth without mincing words. I mean he claims to have been a church leader!
Like I said, I’m leery of all who leave ministry for politics.
January 1st, 2008 at 10:17 pm
See the update to this post.