It’s an all-star conference set for the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, Calif., Jan. 17-19.Former President George H.W. Bush will speak.
Chuck Colson will make a presentation.
Larry King will be there.
Rupert Murdoch will address attendees.
Ben Stein will appear.
And Kay Warren, wife of Saddleback Church mega-pastor Rick Warren, will join Robert Schuller, the white-haired, bespectacled purveyor of “possibility thinking.”
What could such a diverse group have in common? What’s the topic?Well, it’s a little vague.
It’s called the “Rethink Conference,” and Schuller promises 30 “Aha!” moments from the 30 different speakers confirmed for the event.
Not everyone is thrilled about this meeting of the minds. Some, including Christian author and former New Age devotee Warren Smith, suspect an agenda to subvert the church - to take the focus off biblical truth and absolutes.
“From my perspective as a former New Age follower, I believe that Robert Schuller’s mission has always been to ‘rethink’ and ‘change’ biblical Christianity into something ‘new’ - as in New Age/New Spirituality,” he says.
This is what happens when you start leaning towards the false secular humanistic doctrine and thinking there are paths to Heaven other than Christ.
Billy Graham Denies Jesus Is The ONLY WAY To The Father.
With Robert Schuller Cheering.
There’s plenty of shipwreck that awaits once you forget these:
Matthew 7:13 (New American Standard Bible)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
What is the narrow gate?
Acts 4:7-12 (New American Standard Bible)
7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,
9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead–by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
11 “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Christ Jesus alone is the narrow gate and means to salvation. The apostles did not preach anything different and they DID NOT tell others including Jews that they can get to Heaven via what might be viewed as good deeds.
The thing that surprises me is to see Lee Strobel’s name attached to this farce. Usually Lee has more sense than that. He’ll probably the most grounded-in-truth voice of the event - still sad to see his picture anywhere near Schuller’s though
The full list of speakers can be seen right here. Dr. Robert H. Schuller (co-host) Erwin McManus (co-host) George Barna Mark Mittelberg Bishop Charles E. Blake - head man of COGIC Rupert Murdoch George H. W. Bush, Sr. John Ortberg Dr. Ben Carson Nancy Ortberg Dr. Tim Clinton Dr. Les Parrott Dr. Henry Cloud Stephen G. Post, Ph.D. Charles Colson Dr. Robert A. Schuller George Foreman Jay Sekulow Jon Gordon Gary Smalley Dan Kimball Ben Stein Larry King Lee Strobel Robert Craig "Evel" Knievel, Jr. Dr. John Townsend H. B. London, Jr. Kay Warren
Miles McPherson
Bringing together varied Christian names with varied secular names and hoping together you can make something better. But by brining the secular with no true mission to evangelize THEM and peddling this to saints and others at a price of $349(and that’s the early bird special price), it’s NOT GOING TO DO A THING to advance the message of the Lord Jesus Christ!
I see the old hooking up with the money changers, but let’s not talk about the true message of repentance through Christ going on here. Any Christian that mentions the name of Christ at this event I am certain will have something so watered down to say, that it won’t even be milk at all. Not even skim milk. It will be straight water, leaving people like Larry King thinking he can get to Heaven without Christ. Probably reinforcing King’s view that he can get to Heaven on whatever he sees as being good works.
This is quite the whose who. Jay Sekulow is the head of the ACLJ which is the only counter to the ACLU. However, it does not surprise me that he is there considering his connection with Pat Robertson who is known for his teachings on the law of reciprocity and stopping hurricanes LOL!. Now as for Chuck Colson he should stick to Prison Fellowship and stay away . George Forman claimed to have been saved in 1977 after a fight where he collapsed. Since then he has been a pastor and of course a business man and a professional fighter again, however you would think that after being saved for 30 years you would know better than to hang around this fool Schuller. Now as for the head of the COGIC Church that really does not surprise me with there focus on tongue babblings and being slain in the spirit. This list is truly a Tower of Babel.
Kyle
I have a sick feeling that alot of the so-called ‘"Men of God" are(phonies) not really working for Christ.These people are pawns sitting comfortably in the enemy’s slimy, corrupted lap. Why are they so inter interconnected with secular/worldly people in high places?WHY?In my opinion, the WOLFERS are "putting on" a good front, but I’m no dummy cause I can see the wolf ears hiding behind the furry sheep’s clothing.
IC, I still keep scratching my head about the Robert Schuller thing. I mean his doctrine is clearly outside of the realm of Christian teachings. Yet, this is more proof that Christian "leaders" are losing respect for biblical teachings concerning associating with false teachers.
I think the draw is prestige, recognition and money.
As far as COGIC goes, it established the Office of Ecumenical Relations under GE Patterson’s watch. They are seeking partnership with both the WCC and NCC, two of the most apostate church organizations on the planet.
Blake has long been a "ecumentalist" which is what got him into hot water over the Peter Gnomes homosexual preacher affair. He has also said Schuller is a mentor of his.
Like Andy, Im surprised at Lee Strobel’s name being there. But again power, presitge, money, recognition blinds one to danger of pursuing such things, especially this unholy mix with secular humanists. I don’t think having dinner with a sinner is wrong, but in this context it neuters the truth about sin and salvation.
Some names that I really respect on here: Ben Carson and Lee Strobel. I did support George Barna until I got the most recent news item from his group claiming that we had to compromise the gospel to reach the young. Ben Stein isn’t even a Christian, and Larry King is an atheist. Just evil. I wish that I could contact some of these people and ask them what on earth they think they are doing. Strobel and Carson certainly do not need the money or prestige.
These guys are out to merge all the faiths together, and are prepared to trample over solid doctrine to do it. As for Schuller, can we expect any less from the man who produced the book which claims Christ died over self-esteem? I don’t think so…
The sad thing is most people are looking for a specific place to call babylon never once thinking that perhaps it is a spirit of deception and not a location. They prefer a superficial god who changes according to their whims that is presented by people like these. Come on, what will it take for these people to realize that God has no association with the porn king of europe (Murdoch)? Perhaps those who put this together and those who will attend are beyond hope. I’m not even sure if that’s a question or a statement.
Rick Warren has never seemed to be upset with his assembly member named Rupert Murdoch. Rupert gives Warren those big checks. And Warren does not preach against sin much at all anyway, if he does at all.
I am shocked that folk are shocked to see Lee Strobel associated with this. Strobel is a student of and product of Bill Hybels’ teaching. While Hybels has made some statements recently that may indicate that he is backing away somewhat from the seeker-sensitive philosophy (see oldtruth.com), Hybels as we know is a dean (if not founder) of the "seeker-sensitive" bowel movement. When Hybels started HIS church, he vowed not to use religious words in order to reach the un-churched. Hybels’ philosophy of polling the un-churched to see what they wanted to see in a church service and then incorporating that into HIS church services is the same blue-print his buddy and mentee Rick "purpose-drivel" Warren used when Rick founded His church 5 years after Hybel founded Willow Creek. In fact, the entertainment, cirque du soliel-type atmospheres, oh I mean "environments" to use the correct seeker-sensitive term, stem directly from Hybels’ Willow Creek blueprint.
Now, for more on the Strobel-Hybels connection, Hybels wrote the forward to one of Strobel’s books, "Inside The Mind Of Unchurched Harry & Mary, How To Reach Friends And Family Who Avoid God And The Church". In this book Strobel states that he was drawn to Hybels’ church, not by the message of truth, but by the music and how cool the environment was and how comfortable he felt there. I think this lead the journalist/lawyer turned preacher Strobel to put on his investigative/legal hat, like a good reporter/lawyer and sent him on a mission to find out what works, what folk (like Harry and Mary) like as opposed to finding out what God requires. This is further evidenced in a subsequent book about becoming a "Contagious Christian". There, the thesis seems to be, make the un-churched like you, try as hard as you can to please lost, unregenerate seekers, and eh, don’t worry about pleasing God.
[Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if I am not mistaken, when Strobel left Willow Brook, didn’t he became pastor of- get this- "church growth" at Saddle Back--Rick Warren's organization?] The Schuller connection. Strobel’s mentor Hybels, credits Schuller as being an inspiration to him. He has stated that he read Schuller’s seminal church-growth book ("Your Church Has Real Possibilities") and used parts of it to model Willow Creek after. Rick Warren, who patterned HIS church after Hybels’ church, calls Schuller his mentor and if you can find your copy of "The Purpose-Driven Life", check out the first few pages…Schuller writes an endorsement of the book and Rick Warren’s teachings and states something crazy like, ‘it is his prayer that every pastor in America will read this [Purpose Driven Life] book’ (I knew something was wrong when I read that, and should have tossed the book then, but I kept reading because almost everyone in my evangelical church was ranting and raving over this book). Even if you didn’t read PDL, you should be able to discern Schuller’s self-esteem gospel all throughout Warren’s teachings/writings.So, it should not be a shock or surprise that Lee Strobel, the friend, co-pastor and mentee of two of Schuller’s most notable mentees is on the speaker’s list. I know many of us read Lee’s "The Case For…" books and in evangelical circles those book were passed around and touted as if they were the Bible and Lee was Paul (remember the 6-pack? They actually packaged the book up in a box set of 6 and asked you to keep one for yourself and give the other 5 out!). I read the "Case for Christ" shortly after God autonomously and graciously saved me. I will admit that as a logician I appreciated the read because of how Strobel as a journalist and lawyer laid out and made the "case". And, as a thinker, I could relate more to his intellectual evangelism than the emotional stuff I had experienced. I have come to realize that while we don’t leave our brains at the door when we enter the church building (although, most of the word of faithers do!), we do not come to Christ or reach a conclusion of His existence or the Truth by logic or reasoning. I believe that our relationship with Christ is by and through faith and that faith is His gift to us, which is increased and built up as we abide in Him. What I’m saying is that while I get apologetics and support and engage in evangelistic efforts, Christ is not on trial and he does not need man making a case for Him or trying to convince folk on His behalf. After all, the Greatest Counsellor ever, the Holy Spirit, does a brilliant job at this in the heart of man–no human co-counsel is needed! One final note on Strobel (if his links to Hybels, Warren, and Schuller were not enough to make you do more research on his beliefs), is that he is also yoked up with the whole Contemplative Prayer/Spirituality stuff. Google it and read more on what that is all about if you don’t know. My heart truly sinks when I see the church embracing this stuff. Anyway, I am not trying to tear Strobel down and I hope I am not being too critical–I realize that every "big" or well-known name in christendom is not an apostate. I just wanted to point out that many of us make superstars out of so-called Christian authors and speakers because their books, tapes, DVDs are touted and passed around and recommended in Christian circles. And, when we see them associated with foolishness we are "shocked". What we really need to do is check what they are about against God’s word and pray for more discernment. Finally, this is off topic but I’ve been intending to to make this point as I read these sort of "ring the alarm"-type blogs– we should hold the conservative, flag-waving, evangelical, suburban (i.e. White) false teachers, to the same level of scrutiny/criticism/calling out that we do the charismatic, Bentley driving, zoot suit wearing, private-jet flying, million dollar home dwelling, flashy, urban (i.e Black) false teacher. In my estimation there is no difference between Creflo Dollar and Andy Stanley or TD Jakes and Rick Warren or Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore ( I know ladies, this is surprising, Beth’s messages started sounding a little too new agey to me, so I did some research and it seems that she too is caught up in "contemplative spirituality").
False is false and error is error—whether its wearing khakis and a golf shirt, a blue pinstriped suit with an American flag on the lapel or a diamond pinky ring and a muscle shirt.
I promise, I spaced between paragraphs. I don’t know what happened once my comment was submitted. Run on comments are a pet- peeve of mine, so I wouldn’t be guilty of doing it. smile
I know about the comment formatting issues Spark. The update to the comment box seems to have its benefits and drawbacks. Overall I like it but its got quirks.
You can always click the HTML button and enter text the old way. But if you use that you’ve got to click that button before you type anything.
spark - I think you’ve given folks lots to think about.
Regarding sites that call out pimps, I’m sure you see (like with this post even) various types are called out here for the good of all saints and glory to God. However, depending on someone’s frame of reference who comes out of WoF heresy, that will probably be the area they speak about most. Really we need some female teachers to step up and handle people like Joyce and Beth, because many of us men were never even considering her stuff even when we were following WoF nuts. Not that I can say I won’t ever have a post about someone like Joyce, but no blog can warn about them all. The idea is to get people into reading scripture for what’s on the pages and reading more themselves. If they can get that, they’ll be able to deal with whatever pimp comes there way. Because they will be following Christ.
And we really do need more people speaking up. Especially, we really do need more women to call out the female false teachers. Of course men can and do call out female false teachers, but women false teachers bring an angle that I think women in the church could give special insight on.
I did not know about Lee Strobel’s ties to the New World Order. But if you go to my weblog, http://healtheland.wordpress.com, you will see that I go after Rick Warren and the religious right vigorously.
I don’t feel any blogger should feel bad in any way if they sound the alarm and are only mentioning a certain group of false teachers. Each person has to address what they know and are familiar with.
There are WAY MORE PIMPS than any single blogger would ever be able to note.
Every blogger knows their given audience and who (in regards to pimps) they are familiar with to provide insight about. I mean so long as the blogger is not avoiding noting someone THEY KNOW is no good and neglecting to mention them for the sake of partiality. I have NEVER done a post about Joyce and while I knows she’s false from the little I’ve seen, I think others address her better than me because they are more familiar with her material in-depth. I know more of people like Paula White. Her mannerisms, cliches and just her overall game are something I’m familiar with. So I can sound the alarm about Paula far better than devoting time to Joyce. Others have Joyce covered who can provide better in-depth analysis of her. Does not mean I never will, but of course my blog is a blended bag. I might call out a pimp one day and for the past 2 days I’ve been noting people who speak the truth. And who knows if tomorrow’s posts will even be about church matters. Who knows if there will even be a post tomorrow . Only God knows.
Personally, though, there are times when it feels as if one may be focusing on something that may be of no relevance. For example, on my blog, I was recently discussing the issue of evolution/ the lies behind it that are constantly propped up in our school systems……& I decided to give out some useful information/rebuttals to the issue that could help people.
Yet, with the MYRIAD od issues out there….ESPECIALLY IN THE CHURCH that seem to go unoticed, it’s easy to feel as if you’re not doing enough. But as you said, as long as you’re focused on tackling something that needs to be corrected, I guess it’s all good….
I tried to access the link in your comment several times to no avail. I suppose you are referencing Rick’s membership on the Council on Foreign Relations. I’ve seen articles about the CFR and the New World Order; but, I’ve not delved into it. From what I know, the CFR is a foreign policy think tank, and I wouldn’t have an issue with there being a true believer on the Council interjecting Truth into the foreign policy conversation. I look forward to visiting your site so that I can read more. And, I am glad that you are ringing the alarm with respect to error, deception and false teaching within the religious right…IC, is correct, there is so much of it and one person can’t expose it all.
You know, it is not in a girl’s nature to confront. And, one of the reasons why male alarm-sounders don’t expose female false teachers is that males, by and large, don’t listen to/follow female preachers–check out a Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Juanita Bynum, Beth Moore audiences on TV–at least 90% female.
Another reason may be that it is typically not in a gentleman’s nature to "attack" a female. I know exposing and warning is not attacking, but it may seem that way. So, unless and until a female who is familiar with false female ministries /teachers steps up, the preaching, error-spewing girls may be able to fly under the radar somewhat unchecked.
My hope is that, until a sister steps-up, more women will began to read blogs like yours so their eyes will be opened and they will be able to discern error whether it’s dressed in a skirt or trousers. Because, the reality is that the majority supporters of most churches/ministries are women. So, when the women finally wake up and start walking out of the mega domes of deception, the walls will really start tumbling down.
Wow, that ALMOST inspires me to be the sister to start ringing the false-female-teacher alarm! Well, not really. But, I can find out where the next "Woman thou art loosed" conference is being held and go and distribute flyers shaped like a Christian Louboutin* shoe that say "Step into the Truth-Check out independentconservative.com!"
spark: "From what I know, the CFR is a foreign policy think tank, and I wouldn’t have an issue with there being a true believer on the Council interjecting Truth into the foreign policy conversation." I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist on IndependentConservative’s weblog because he really isn’t into that stuff, but having you believe that they are just a benign foreign policy think tank is precisely what they want you to believe. CFR is a very powerful organization whose goal is economic, political, social, cultural, etc. globalism. I could get into who started, who funds, and who is confederate with the CFR, but that is beyond the scope of this conversation, though I request of you to research the matter.
Instead, I wish to point out that religion is very much on the CFR agenda. It is probably an oversimplification to say that the CFR "supports one world government" (though there are certainly members of CFR that desire it), the CFR is against anything that hinders global unity. Nothing is a bigger barrier to unity than fundamentalist religions with exclusive claims. So CFR promotes religious figures that are either universalist or the next best thing (and actually better for some purposes) those with a watered - down homogenized message with a New Age component.
It is interesting to note that Oprah Winfrey, while "technically" not a religious leader the most effective proponent of New Age since Shirley MaClaine (sp), has CFR ties … her educational outreach programs for girls in Africa are through them. More to the point, the pastors that have CFR ties are generally the ones that go on Larry King and refuse to say that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. That includes none other than TD Jakes, who has CFR ties, who has famously refused at various times to commit to Jesus Christ being the only way. Incidentally, both Jakes and Warren have endorsed Christians practicing "Yahweh yoga", contemplative prayer, meditation, etc. and other stuff from Hinduism and Buddhism. They are not the only ones. As a matter of fact, the pastors that are associated with CFR and their splinter groups (which is alleged to include the Center For National Policy, founded by Sun Myung Moon, the Moonies cult, but I cannot confirm it, but please know that even if it is not true being associated with Moon is bad enough) is basically a who’s who of the religious right and the people on TBN and similar. Billy Graham? Ties to CFR. You are aware that no one has done more for the cause of ecumenism (the acceptance of Roman Catholics by Protestants) than Billy Graham. Please recall that Graham recently endorsed universalism in that famous Newsweek article. Time Magazine: "Graham is totally representative of American religious universalism."
You have to realize that these preachers that pop up out of nowhere with these huge churches, massive and generally uncritical media embrace (many members of the world’s big media conglomerates are in CFR), and prime slots on Christian TV, and influence … it often doesn’t "just happen." There are generally people behind them. It is interesting to note that none of these famous preachers are Reformed or fundamentalist, are they? Some of them might be POLITICALLY conservative, but their theology is generally something that gives the masses what they want.
I really Read Books only by One Christian Writer anymore in Our Current time John MacArthur,I use to enjoy Tony Evans But after seeing Him On TBN I knew the change has come ,Also I always enjoyed Max Lucado and whence I saw Jan Crouch Offering One of His Books as a Love Gift if You sent Her some quick cash,I contacted Lucado and ask why His involvement with the Crouch’s and they replied that they have No restrictions on TBN offering His Books for their “Love Offering” at least its better than Your Official glow in the Dark Jesus Night Light that You can receive for a Offering of $500 Or more.Its sad to see Godly men Following The deceit by those who would Represent The Ministry of Jesus Christ for Wordly gain…and Fame
October 30th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
The thing that surprises me is to see Lee Strobel’s name attached to this farce. Usually Lee has more sense than that. He’ll probably the most grounded-in-truth voice of the event - still sad to see his picture anywhere near Schuller’s though
October 30th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
The full list of speakers can be seen right here.
Dr. Robert H. Schuller (co-host)
Erwin McManus (co-host)
George Barna
Mark Mittelberg
Bishop Charles E. Blake - head man of COGIC
Rupert Murdoch
George H. W. Bush, Sr.
John Ortberg
Dr. Ben Carson
Nancy Ortberg
Dr. Tim Clinton
Dr. Les Parrott
Dr. Henry Cloud
Stephen G. Post, Ph.D.
Charles Colson
Dr. Robert A. Schuller
George Foreman
Jay Sekulow
Jon Gordon
Gary Smalley
Dan Kimball
Ben Stein
Larry King
Lee Strobel
Robert Craig "Evel" Knievel, Jr.
Dr. John Townsend
H. B. London, Jr.
Kay Warren
Miles McPherson
Bringing together varied Christian names with varied secular names and hoping together you can make something better. But by brining the secular with no true mission to evangelize THEM and peddling this to saints and others at a price of $349 (and that’s the early bird special price), it’s NOT GOING TO DO A THING to advance the message of the Lord Jesus Christ!
I see the old hooking up with the money changers, but let’s not talk about the true message of repentance through Christ going on here. Any Christian that mentions the name of Christ at this event I am certain will have something so watered down to say, that it won’t even be milk at all. Not even skim milk. It will be straight water, leaving people like Larry King thinking he can get to Heaven without Christ. Probably reinforcing King’s view that he can get to Heaven on whatever he sees as being good works.
October 30th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
IC,
This is quite the whose who. Jay Sekulow is the head of the ACLJ which is the only counter to the ACLU. However, it does not surprise me that he is there considering his connection with Pat Robertson who is known for his teachings on the law of reciprocity and stopping hurricanes LOL!. Now as for Chuck Colson he should stick to Prison Fellowship and stay away . George Forman claimed to have been saved in 1977 after a fight where he collapsed. Since then he has been a pastor and of course a business man and a professional fighter again, however you would think that after being saved for 30 years you would know better than to hang around this fool Schuller. Now as for the head of the COGIC Church that really does not surprise me with there focus on tongue babblings and being slain in the spirit. This list is truly a Tower of Babel.
Kyle
October 30th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
They are not the only counter. There is the Alliance Defense Fund.
Well said!
October 30th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
I have a sick feeling that alot of the so-called ‘"Men of God" are(phonies) not really working for Christ.These people are pawns sitting comfortably in the enemy’s slimy, corrupted lap. Why are they so inter interconnected with secular/worldly people in high places?WHY?In my opinion, the WOLFERS are "putting on" a good front, but I’m no dummy cause I can see the wolf ears hiding behind the furry sheep’s clothing.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
IC, I still keep scratching my head about the Robert Schuller thing. I mean his doctrine is clearly outside of the realm of Christian teachings. Yet, this is more proof that Christian "leaders" are losing respect for biblical teachings concerning associating with false teachers.
I think the draw is prestige, recognition and money.
As far as COGIC goes, it established the Office of Ecumenical Relations under GE Patterson’s watch. They are seeking partnership with both the WCC and NCC, two of the most apostate church organizations on the planet.
Blake has long been a "ecumentalist" which is what got him into hot water over the Peter Gnomes homosexual preacher affair. He has also said Schuller is a mentor of his.
Like Andy, Im surprised at Lee Strobel’s name being there. But again power, presitge, money, recognition blinds one to danger of pursuing such things, especially this unholy mix with secular humanists. I don’t think having dinner with a sinner is wrong, but in this context it neuters the truth about sin and salvation.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
IndependentConservative:
Some names that I really respect on here: Ben Carson and Lee Strobel. I did support George Barna until I got the most recent news item from his group claiming that we had to compromise the gospel to reach the young. Ben Stein isn’t even a Christian, and Larry King is an atheist. Just evil. I wish that I could contact some of these people and ask them what on earth they think they are doing. Strobel and Carson certainly do not need the money or prestige.
October 31st, 2007 at 8:59 am
These guys are out to merge all the faiths together, and are prepared to trample over solid doctrine to do it. As for Schuller, can we expect any less from the man who produced the book which claims Christ died over self-esteem? I don’t think so…
October 31st, 2007 at 11:01 am
The sad thing is most people are looking for a specific place to call babylon never once thinking that perhaps it is a spirit of deception and not a location. They prefer a superficial god who changes according to their whims that is presented by people like these. Come on, what will it take for these people to realize that God has no association with the porn king of europe (Murdoch)? Perhaps those who put this together and those who will attend are beyond hope. I’m not even sure if that’s a question or a statement.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:22 am
Rick Warren has never seemed to be upset with his assembly member named Rupert Murdoch. Rupert gives Warren those big checks. And Warren does not preach against sin much at all anyway, if he does at all.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I am shocked that folk are shocked to see Lee Strobel associated with this. Strobel is a student of and product of Bill Hybels’ teaching. While Hybels has made some statements recently that may indicate that he is backing away somewhat from the seeker-sensitive philosophy (see oldtruth.com), Hybels as we know is a dean (if not founder) of the "seeker-sensitive" bowel movement. When Hybels started HIS church, he vowed not to use religious words in order to reach the un-churched. Hybels’ philosophy of polling the un-churched to see what they wanted to see in a church service and then incorporating that into HIS church services is the same blue-print his buddy and mentee Rick "purpose-drivel" Warren used when Rick founded His church 5 years after Hybel founded Willow Creek. In fact, the entertainment, cirque du soliel-type atmospheres, oh I mean "environments" to use the correct seeker-sensitive term, stem directly from Hybels’ Willow Creek blueprint.
Now, for more on the Strobel-Hybels connection, Hybels wrote the forward to one of Strobel’s books, "Inside The Mind Of Unchurched Harry & Mary, How To Reach Friends And Family Who Avoid God And The Church". In this book Strobel states that he was drawn to Hybels’ church, not by the message of truth, but by the music and how cool the environment was and how comfortable he felt there. I think this lead the journalist/lawyer turned preacher Strobel to put on his investigative/legal hat, like a good reporter/lawyer and sent him on a mission to find out what works, what folk (like Harry and Mary) like as opposed to finding out what God requires. This is further evidenced in a subsequent book about becoming a "Contagious Christian". There, the thesis seems to be, make the un-churched like you, try as hard as you can to please lost, unregenerate seekers, and eh, don’t worry about pleasing God.
[Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if I am not mistaken, when Strobel left Willow Brook, didn’t he became pastor of- get this- "church growth" at Saddle Back--Rick Warren's organization?] The Schuller connection. Strobel’s mentor Hybels, credits Schuller as being an inspiration to him. He has stated that he read Schuller’s seminal church-growth book ("Your Church Has Real Possibilities") and used parts of it to model Willow Creek after. Rick Warren, who patterned HIS church after Hybels’ church, calls Schuller his mentor and if you can find your copy of "The Purpose-Driven Life", check out the first few pages…Schuller writes an endorsement of the book and Rick Warren’s teachings and states something crazy like, ‘it is his prayer that every pastor in America will read this [Purpose Driven Life] book’ (I knew something was wrong when I read that, and should have tossed the book then, but I kept reading because almost everyone in my evangelical church was ranting and raving over this book). Even if you didn’t read PDL, you should be able to discern Schuller’s self-esteem gospel all throughout Warren’s teachings/writings.So, it should not be a shock or surprise that Lee Strobel, the friend, co-pastor and mentee of two of Schuller’s most notable mentees is on the speaker’s list. I know many of us read Lee’s "The Case For…" books and in evangelical circles those book were passed around and touted as if they were the Bible and Lee was Paul (remember the 6-pack? They actually packaged the book up in a box set of 6 and asked you to keep one for yourself and give the other 5 out!). I read the "Case for Christ" shortly after God autonomously and graciously saved me. I will admit that as a logician I appreciated the read because of how Strobel as a journalist and lawyer laid out and made the "case". And, as a thinker, I could relate more to his intellectual evangelism than the emotional stuff I had experienced. I have come to realize that while we don’t leave our brains at the door when we enter the church building (although, most of the word of faithers do!), we do not come to Christ or reach a conclusion of His existence or the Truth by logic or reasoning. I believe that our relationship with Christ is by and through faith and that faith is His gift to us, which is increased and built up as we abide in Him. What I’m saying is that while I get apologetics and support and engage in evangelistic efforts, Christ is not on trial and he does not need man making a case for Him or trying to convince folk on His behalf. After all, the Greatest Counsellor ever, the Holy Spirit, does a brilliant job at this in the heart of man–no human co-counsel is needed! One final note on Strobel (if his links to Hybels, Warren, and Schuller were not enough to make you do more research on his beliefs), is that he is also yoked up with the whole Contemplative Prayer/Spirituality stuff. Google it and read more on what that is all about if you don’t know. My heart truly sinks when I see the church embracing this stuff. Anyway, I am not trying to tear Strobel down and I hope I am not being too critical–I realize that every "big" or well-known name in christendom is not an apostate. I just wanted to point out that many of us make superstars out of so-called Christian authors and speakers because their books, tapes, DVDs are touted and passed around and recommended in Christian circles. And, when we see them associated with foolishness we are "shocked". What we really need to do is check what they are about against God’s word and pray for more discernment. Finally, this is off topic but I’ve been intending to to make this point as I read these sort of "ring the alarm"-type blogs– we should hold the conservative, flag-waving, evangelical, suburban (i.e. White) false teachers, to the same level of scrutiny/criticism/calling out that we do the charismatic, Bentley driving, zoot suit wearing, private-jet flying, million dollar home dwelling, flashy, urban (i.e Black) false teacher. In my estimation there is no difference between Creflo Dollar and Andy Stanley or TD Jakes and Rick Warren or Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore ( I know ladies, this is surprising, Beth’s messages started sounding a little too new agey to me, so I did some research and it seems that she too is caught up in "contemplative spirituality").
False is false and error is error—whether its wearing khakis and a golf shirt, a blue pinstriped suit with an American flag on the lapel or a diamond pinky ring and a muscle shirt.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:54 pm
IC,
I promise, I spaced between paragraphs. I don’t know what happened once my comment was submitted. Run on comments are a pet- peeve of mine, so I wouldn’t be guilty of doing it. smile
October 31st, 2007 at 2:29 pm
I know about the comment formatting issues Spark. The update to the comment box seems to have its benefits and drawbacks. Overall I like it but its got quirks.
You can always click the HTML button and enter text the old way. But if you use that you’ve got to click that button before you type anything.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:10 pm
spark - I think you’ve given folks lots to think about.
Regarding sites that call out pimps, I’m sure you see (like with this post even) various types are called out here for the good of all saints and glory to God. However, depending on someone’s frame of reference who comes out of WoF heresy, that will probably be the area they speak about most. Really we need some female teachers to step up and handle people like Joyce and Beth, because many of us men were never even considering her stuff even when we were following WoF nuts. Not that I can say I won’t ever have a post about someone like Joyce, but no blog can warn about them all. The idea is to get people into reading scripture for what’s on the pages and reading more themselves. If they can get that, they’ll be able to deal with whatever pimp comes there way. Because they will be following Christ.
And we really do need more people speaking up. Especially, we really do need more women to call out the female false teachers. Of course men can and do call out female false teachers, but women false teachers bring an angle that I think women in the church could give special insight on.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:09 pm
spark:
I did not know about Lee Strobel’s ties to the New World Order. But if you go to my weblog, http://healtheland.wordpress.com, you will see that I go after Rick Warren and the religious right vigorously.
November 1st, 2007 at 3:33 pm
I don’t feel any blogger should feel bad in any way if they sound the alarm and are only mentioning a certain group of false teachers. Each person has to address what they know and are familiar with.
There are WAY MORE PIMPS than any single blogger would ever be able to note.
Every blogger knows their given audience and who (in regards to pimps) they are familiar with to provide insight about. I mean so long as the blogger is not avoiding noting someone THEY KNOW is no good and neglecting to mention them for the sake of partiality. I have NEVER done a post about Joyce and while I knows she’s false from the little I’ve seen, I think others address her better than me because they are more familiar with her material in-depth. I know more of people like Paula White. Her mannerisms, cliches and just her overall game are something I’m familiar with. So I can sound the alarm about Paula far better than devoting time to Joyce. Others have Joyce covered who can provide better in-depth analysis of her. Does not mean I never will, but of course my blog is a blended bag. I might call out a pimp one day and for the past 2 days I’ve been noting people who speak the truth. And who knows if tomorrow’s posts will even be about church matters. Who knows if there will even be a post tomorrow
. Only God knows.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:09 pm
That’s encouraging to hear, Brah….
Personally, though, there are times when it feels as if one may be focusing on something that may be of no relevance. For example, on my blog, I was recently discussing the issue of evolution/ the lies behind it that are constantly propped up in our school systems……& I decided to give out some useful information/rebuttals to the issue that could help people.
Yet, with the MYRIAD od issues out there….ESPECIALLY IN THE CHURCH that seem to go unoticed, it’s easy to feel as if you’re not doing enough. But as you said, as long as you’re focused on tackling something that needs to be corrected, I guess it’s all good….
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:15 am
healtheland,
I tried to access the link in your comment several times to no avail. I suppose you are referencing Rick’s membership on the Council on Foreign Relations. I’ve seen articles about the CFR and the New World Order; but, I’ve not delved into it. From what I know, the CFR is a foreign policy think tank, and I wouldn’t have an issue with there being a true believer on the Council interjecting Truth into the foreign policy conversation. I look forward to visiting your site so that I can read more. And, I am glad that you are ringing the alarm with respect to error, deception and false teaching within the religious right…IC, is correct, there is so much of it and one person can’t expose it all.
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:19 am
Here is his site Jesus Christology . Always available in the blogroll links
.
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:19 am
IC,
You know, it is not in a girl’s nature to confront. And, one of the reasons why male alarm-sounders don’t expose female false teachers is that males, by and large, don’t listen to/follow female preachers–check out a Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Juanita Bynum, Beth Moore audiences on TV–at least 90% female.
Another reason may be that it is typically not in a gentleman’s nature to "attack" a female. I know exposing and warning is not attacking, but it may seem that way. So, unless and until a female who is familiar with false female ministries /teachers steps up, the preaching, error-spewing girls may be able to fly under the radar somewhat unchecked.
My hope is that, until a sister steps-up, more women will began to read blogs like yours so their eyes will be opened and they will be able to discern error whether it’s dressed in a skirt or trousers. Because, the reality is that the majority supporters of most churches/ministries are women. So, when the women finally wake up and start walking out of the mega domes of deception, the walls will really start tumbling down.
Wow, that ALMOST inspires me to be the sister to start ringing the false-female-teacher alarm! Well, not really. But, I can find out where the next "Woman thou art loosed" conference is being held and go and distribute flyers shaped like a Christian Louboutin* shoe that say "Step into the Truth-Check out independentconservative.com!"
*for you men–designer footwear
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:20 am
spark: "From what I know, the CFR is a foreign policy think tank, and I wouldn’t have an issue with there being a true believer on the Council interjecting Truth into the foreign policy conversation." I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist on IndependentConservative’s weblog because he really isn’t into that stuff, but having you believe that they are just a benign foreign policy think tank is precisely what they want you to believe. CFR is a very powerful organization whose goal is economic, political, social, cultural, etc. globalism. I could get into who started, who funds, and who is confederate with the CFR, but that is beyond the scope of this conversation, though I request of you to research the matter.
Instead, I wish to point out that religion is very much on the CFR agenda. It is probably an oversimplification to say that the CFR "supports one world government" (though there are certainly members of CFR that desire it), the CFR is against anything that hinders global unity. Nothing is a bigger barrier to unity than fundamentalist religions with exclusive claims. So CFR promotes religious figures that are either universalist or the next best thing (and actually better for some purposes) those with a watered - down homogenized message with a New Age component.
It is interesting to note that Oprah Winfrey, while "technically" not a religious leader the most effective proponent of New Age since Shirley MaClaine (sp), has CFR ties … her educational outreach programs for girls in Africa are through them. More to the point, the pastors that have CFR ties are generally the ones that go on Larry King and refuse to say that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. That includes none other than TD Jakes, who has CFR ties, who has famously refused at various times to commit to Jesus Christ being the only way. Incidentally, both Jakes and Warren have endorsed Christians practicing "Yahweh yoga", contemplative prayer, meditation, etc. and other stuff from Hinduism and Buddhism. They are not the only ones. As a matter of fact, the pastors that are associated with CFR and their splinter groups (which is alleged to include the Center For National Policy, founded by Sun Myung Moon, the Moonies cult, but I cannot confirm it, but please know that even if it is not true being associated with Moon is bad enough) is basically a who’s who of the religious right and the people on TBN and similar. Billy Graham? Ties to CFR. You are aware that no one has done more for the cause of ecumenism (the acceptance of Roman Catholics by Protestants) than Billy Graham. Please recall that Graham recently endorsed universalism in that famous Newsweek article. Time Magazine: "Graham is totally representative of American religious universalism."
You have to realize that these preachers that pop up out of nowhere with these huge churches, massive and generally uncritical media embrace (many members of the world’s big media conglomerates are in CFR), and prime slots on Christian TV, and influence … it often doesn’t "just happen." There are generally people behind them. It is interesting to note that none of these famous preachers are Reformed or fundamentalist, are they? Some of them might be POLITICALLY conservative, but their theology is generally something that gives the masses what they want.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
I really Read Books only by One Christian Writer anymore in Our Current time John MacArthur,I use to enjoy Tony Evans But after seeing Him On TBN I knew the change has come ,Also I always enjoyed Max Lucado and whence I saw Jan Crouch Offering One of His Books as a Love Gift if You sent Her some quick cash,I contacted Lucado and ask why His involvement with the Crouch’s and they replied that they have No restrictions on TBN offering His Books for their “Love Offering” at least its better than Your Official glow in the Dark Jesus Night Light that You can receive for a Offering of $500 Or more.Its sad to see Godly men Following The deceit by those who would Represent The Ministry of Jesus Christ for Wordly gain…and Fame
IndependentConservative reply on August 28th, 2008 at 9:14 pm :
Here’s something John MacArthur had to say about Tony Evans, that is worth reading. Once upon a time everybody thought Tony was OK, once upon a time.