And folks, if they’re doing it in the UK, soon it WILL be going on in the USA!
Rethink on human hybrid experiments
A radical Government re-think on the law governing hybrid embryos will allow scientists to carry out virtually any work they like - if it is approved by regulators.
The move opens the door to experiments involving every known kind of human-animal hybrid. These could include both “cytoplasmic” embryos, which are 99.9% human, and “true hybrids” carrying both human and animal genes.
In addition “chimeras” made of a mosaic-like mix of cells from different species, and “human transgenic embryos” - human embryos modified with animal DNA - will also be allowed under licence.
…
The revised Bill does more than even the committee asked for. It effectively removes the barriers completely, permitting the creation of all four currently envisaged types of hybrid embryo, subject to a licence being granted by the relevant regulatory authority - in this case the HFEA.
Allowing scientists to work on human-animal hybrid embryos will greatly speed up progress in stem cell research. Researchers hope to use embryonic stem cells (ESCs), which can transform into virtually any kind of body tissue, to investigate the causes of human diseases and develop new therapies for currently incurable conditions such as Parkinson’s and type 1 diabetes.
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Hey, I thought Liberals/Progressives like those in the UK hated experiments being done on animals?
The only question regarding the USA’s soon to come next stage in this continual slide down the slope to a totally debased society. Is how many ads will be run on TV of some dying old person (or a young sick celebrity) begging for help via this new science, before enough reprobates in Congress vote to allow this here? Private funds are already being used to play with frozen babies (Liberals call them embryos) like guinea pigs. Next they’ll have a real hybrid human-guinea pig beast-boy! I guess when you can’t hear the baby cry, anything goes!
October 8th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Man, this is just as sick as cloning human and animal cells.
October 8th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Embryonic stem cell research involves cloning, to attempt to make organs that are compatible with the sick individual. So their body would not reject them. That is if they got it working like they desire to.
This monkey-boy stuff is all in the same pot and even worse. Because they desire to go further with merging things that are not human with human parts. I mean if somebody needs a stomach and doctors have to give them say a pig’s stomach, that’s one thing. But actually creating life in test tubes that is part human and part animal is something so sick, you’d think it would only be featured in sci-fi movies.
The bottom line here is that most people have no hope beyond this life and so they must do all they can to prolong their time here. Life without Jesus will make you do some CRAZY things. When you have hope in eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ, you don’t need to urge a scientist to make a monkey-boy, in hopes of prolonging your life somehow by doing something like using monkey-boy for spare parts.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:02 am
What a disgusting thought - merging human and animal cells. I know this is a different issue, but somehow, I can’t help but think that this falls under God’s rule about no bestiality. (Exodus 22:19) I know this kind of thing had got to be tied to that mandate, somehow. Anyhow, we know it won’t work. The dead cat on Steve Munsey’s head should be enough proof that we need to leave the animals in their natural habitat.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:09 am
LOL!
October 9th, 2007 at 1:39 am
I’m not certain Exodus 22:19 is our best reference on this one. Because that was a matter of man engaging in a form of sexual immorality. This is not a matter of sexual immorality. It is sin born out of a love of “self”, that will kill babies and merge them with animals, to meet a desired goal of prolonged physical life. The issue is mixing human babies with animals in this way destroys and belittles human lives. This is a sick extension of embryonic stem cell research.
This is a new and evil invention as noted in Romans 1:30, that evil inventions would be made. To me, the best reference we have in “the law” that this is a bad thing is in Leviticus 19:19. Under the law you could not mix breed animals, you could not mix seeds, you could not even mix fabrics in a garment. Of course we don’t hold to that today, but that verse of scripture from the law provides a guide as the old covenant law should. From it, we understand that we should not mix animals and people. We know humans are on a higher plane than animals. Christ died and was resurrected for the sake of humans, not animals. So trying to breed a human-animal hybrid creates a life form that lessens the value of human life.
And some are A-OK with lessening other humans if it means they might possibly get a few more years of physical life for themselves. It’s all the lowest form of selfishness imaginable.
I guess if you look at Exodus 22:19 in the context of a hypothetical “if” a human could lay with an animal and some life form come from it. Then yes I see how Exodus 22:19 applies.
We know even in nature, God has designed it so that human and animal are incapable of birthing anything together. So it should make common sense even to one who does not care for scripture, that 2 things that can’t breed in nature should not be forced together by man. So yes, thinking it through, Exodus 22:19 has a level of merit in this regard.
October 9th, 2007 at 7:59 am
My question is how can it have life when God is the one that sends Life? Is it not God who sends all spirit? He is the only one that can make a man without a woman [Adam]. Love your posting!
October 9th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Actually,
From a reverse standpoint, no life that occurs on the earth happens without the permission of the Lord. He’s the Giver of the Breath of Life, & nothing becomes a living being until he breathes into it (Genesis 2)
That said (& my apologies for changing the topic a bit), but even if something is created by man that’s spliced with animal dna……or that’s simply a clone, does it not have a soul? Moreover, if it has a soul, can we truly condemn it or should we hope for it to be capable of making rational decisions but being capabel of recieving salvation & perhaps chosesn by the Lord to be used by Him somehow?
October 9th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
To give some solid resources on the issue that everyone can study, I think this would something worthwile to investigate:
http://www.comereason.org/sci_bible/sci020.asp
This is another one which seemed interesting:
http://www.gotquestions.org/genetic-engineering.html
http://www.christian.org.uk/briefingpapers/humancloning.htm
Of course, I’ll share my own personal thoughts later (just in case it seems like I’m simply throwing out links, Bro IC, LOL), but in reading the author’s thoughss on the issues were highly insightful & might bless everyone here. Regardless, as long as the WORD’S being preached/followed above all…
Isaiah 44:2, 21, 24: ” the prophet Isaiah says, “Thus says the LORD who made you and formed you from the womb, … I have formed you, …Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone.”
Psalm 119:73 says, “Your hands made me and fashioned me.”
Blessings….
October 9th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Again, in my understanding, God is the author OF ALL LIFE:
Psalm 139:13-16: “For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”
Isaiah 44:2, 21, 24: “Thus says the LORD who made you and formed you from the womb, … I have formed you, …Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone.”
Psalm 119:73 says, “Your hands made me and fashioned me.”
For some good cannon fodder (research material) on the subject, I’d encourage everyone to go here:
http://www.comereason.org/sci_bible/sci020.asp
http://www.christian.org.uk/briefingpapers/humancloning.htm
I studied the material in depth & felt that it was highly informative. Of COURSE, if asked, I’ll share my thoughts later on the subject…….but I figured that it might bless everyone here. Hope it does. Peace…..
October 9th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Gxg–G2 - Maybe in school they enjoyed you tossing out what everybody else says on the issue and you deciding to offer your own opinion if asked later, but here how about you include in full detail your own thoughts on the matter. We’ll worry about what others who are not commenting here have to say later.
If you’re offering a link to support your own thoughts that’s one thing. But once again you’ve provided lots of other opinions and said nothing yourself. Start with what YOU have to say and give us the other write-ups later. Again I ask you, let’s have a discussion please, not a link swap.
Sure the Lord wills a life to be born in some of the most sinful of circumstances such as adultery, rape, incest and so on. This does not mean we as Christians should endorse those things.
A life in the womb is a life, as noted in Exodus 21:22-25. Which means all experimentation on unborn children is wrong, even if the parents don’t want their child, or the child was made in the dish. Cross breeding man and animal would be worse than when the sons of God took wives and made children with the daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-7
God regretted creating man when His own select people decided to lay down with those who did not know God. And even in that case both at least had a soul. The children of Seth married with the lost children of Cain and God didn’t like it one bit. Yes, he allowed the children to be born, but he didn’t like the act and would have destroyed all humans if not for Noah and those with him.
Just because God might allow man to create a life form such as a monkey-boy, it does not mean we are not in danger of provoking God’s wrath.
I guess this world will have to get even more corrupt for it’s Anti-Christ to come forth, but this is just SICK.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Interesting thoughts, Brah.
To clarify, in case I came off that way, I wasn’t trying to say I was endorsing children born of genetic enginerinng any more than I would say endorse rape, adultrey, etc.
My main point was that it seems inevitable that cloning/genetic enginerring is bound to take place. Man has to reach a point where degragation reaches the MAX before CHrist returns……& therefore, rathter than being shocked by the signs of it coming, we should be prepared to deal with the results of people made out of those unions.
I remember discussing this before in highschool and wondering “How many times do I hear Christians shocked at the thought of life that didn’t happen naturally and yet never come to terms with the fact that it’ll happen & we should be ready to deal with it somehow?” If a human’s cloned tommorrow, so be it. It’s unatural for life to be produced that way, but it’s a life. It has feelings, a mind, and a soul……..& since more of it’s kind are goinng to be produced, might as well get ready to learn how to accomodate him the best I can……cause things are going to be just as crazy for him, if not CRAZIER, than they will be for me. He didn’t ask to be created unaturally.
He didn’t asked to be spliced……..& even though we’re in danger of God’s Wrath, the fact remains that he or she is still caught in the cross-fire…..A VICTIM/CASUALITY of the war man’s waging agaisnt God
October 9th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Personally, I’m guessing my experience with being born out of wedlock may be affecting my viewpoint a bit (lol)
When it happened, there were plenty of people around my mother shocked about the entire situation. You can imagine some of the responses:
“How unatural!!!”
“You’ve really messed things up!!!”
The list goes on…..but despite what others may’ve said, our family was still willing to come to terms with the issue. Even beyond that, they realized that the entire situation (though worthy of God’s Wrath) was still part of GOD’S PLAN/NOT A MISTAKE by His Book.
As the Word makes clear, HE’S SOVEREIGN over every aspect of Creation…..even the bad:
Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven; his kingdom extends over everything.
Daniel 4:34 But at the end of the appointed time I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked up toward heaven, and my sanity returned to me. I blessed the Most High, and I praised and glorified the one who lives forever. For his rule is an everlasting rule, and his kingdom extends from one generation to the next. 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he wishes with the army of heaven and with those who inhabit the earth. No one slaps his hand and says to him, ‘What have you done?’
Ephesians 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will.
Psalm 135:6 He does whatever he pleases in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the ocean depths.
Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 5:45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Psalm 104:27 All of your creatures wait for you to provide them with food on a regular basis. 104:28 You give food to them and they receive it; you open your hand and they are filled with food. 104:29 When you ignore them, they panic. When you take away their life’s breath, they die and return to dust.
Matthew 10:29 Aren’t two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 10:30 Even all the hairs on your head are numbered. 10:31 So do not be afraid; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
Job 12:23 He makes nations great, and destroys them; he extends the boundaries of nations and disperses them.
Psalm 22:28 For the LORD is king and rules over the nations.
Psalm 66:7 He rules by his power forever; he watches the nations. Stubborn rebels should not exalt themselves.
Acts 17:26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live,
1 Samuel 16:1 The LORD said to Samuel, “How long do you intend to mourn for Saul? I have rejected him as king over Israel. Fill your horn with olive oil and go. I am sending you to Jesse in Bethlehem, for I have selected a king for myself from among his sons.”
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw me when I was an unborn fetus. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.
Galatians 1:14 I [Paul] was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my nation, and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my ancestors. 1:15 But when the one who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace was pleased 1:16 to reveal his Son in me so that I could preach him among the Gentiles…
Psalm 75:4 I say to the proud, “Do not be proud,” and to the wicked, “Do not be so confident of victory! 75:5 Do not be so certain you have won! Do not speak with your head held so high! 75:6 For victory does not come from the east or west, or from the wilderness. 75:7 For God is the judge! He brings one down and exalts another.
Luke 1:52 He has brought down the mighty from their thrones, and has lifted up those of lowly position.
Proverbs 16:33 The dice are thrown into the lap, but every decision is from the LORD.
Matthew 10:30 Even all the hairs on your head are numbered.
Psalms 4:8 I will lie down and sleep peacefully, for you, LORD, make me safe and secure.
Psalm 5:12 Certainly you reward the godly, LORD. Like a shield you protect them in your good favor.
Psalm 63:7 For you are my deliverer; under your wings I rejoice. 63:8 My soul pursues you; your right hand upholds me.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose,
Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 4:6-7 Do not be anxious about anything. Instead, tell your requests to God in your every prayer and petition—with thanksgiving. 4:7 And the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
The list of Scriptures goes on, but the point again is that God is Sovereign/In Control…..& just as that should affect our views when it comes to things like children born out of adultrey/incest or some other unatural way that displeases Him, so the same should again go for CHildren born out of Science. God’s in control even of their fates and should be seen/treated no differently than others…….& just as God used others despite crazy/unjust circumstances, so I believe it’s possible for the same to happen today with Genetically enginered children.
If comparing the situation with the Bible, I’d go with the Book of Judges, wchich as as godless/backward & “On it’s way to HELL!!!” time as one could get…..and the children born of Genetic engeneering could be likened to that of Jephthah (Judges 10-13), who was an illegitimate son of Gilead……chased out of the country because of how “unatural” the birth was, and forced to live as an outcast.
He suffered as a result of another’s decision and not for any wrong he had done. Yet, in spite of his brother’s rejection, God used Him.
Moreover, Circumstances BEYOND HIS CONTROL forced Jephthah away from his people and into life as an outcast…..& the same’s true for today. Both believers and nonbelievers may drive away those who do not fit the norms dictated by our society, neighboorhoods or churches……and when things that are unatural ways of doing things according to Scripture are done long-term, they become the norm and anything OUTSIDE/ABOVE THAT has become the standard for ABNORMAL (as is the case with cloning, where it seems that a double standard exists when children produced by it are seen as somehow ABNORMAL while those who are born of adultrey/rape and other ways are accepted….even praised…in our society.)
Often, as in Jephthah’s case, great potential is wasted because of prejudice–a refusal to look beyond ill-concieved stereotypes…..and more harm than neccessary is done becasue we fail to realize that EVERYONE can have a place in God’s family. Background/Beginnings shouldn’t matter…..& the same should happen with CLONING as well.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Talk of children born out of wedlock is not even close to being comparable. That was occurring almost since the start of man’s existence.
We won’t know the results until they are seen. We can’t say the outcome will have a soul, require a leash or both. And it would best to delay that as long as possible. An untold number of babies will die in the process before they even have a beast-boy that they are satisfied with. But we do know that this is a bad idea and possibly the most unholy development of life ever.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Regarding Genesis 6:1-7,
I’d contend that the Genesis account was still far worse than cross-breeding people with animals.
Sounds crazy, but please hear me out first before stoning me (lol).
The reason why was because the Genesis Account was, IMO, about morality. The reasons thing g got bad was not because of the children but rather becuase of the fact that there was no GODLY INFLUENCE left in those producing them.
Some scholars believe that the descensents of Seth intermarried with THE EVIL Cain’s descendents of Cain…..& this would’ve weakened the GODLY INFLUENCE of the faithful that was present since the Fall (Genesis 4:19-26) and resulted in an EXPLOSION OF EVIL.
When that godly influence disappeared,the CHILDREN WERE LEFT TO THEMSELVES……& that’s what gave rise to HIGH RATE OF EVIL in that society…..& hence, why God destroyed it. It was an issue of COMPROMISE that killed them, not the
As another once wisely said, “How sad to see that evil consumed the world when the godly (”sons of God”) married with those who forsooke God (”daughters of men”). For us to prefer beauty, wit, weatlth, and worldly honours to holiness/faith in God is to reject God’s Blessing and curse ourselves, for the evil example of the ungodly corrupts the good and decays that which holds back DESTRUCTION.”
Regarding cloning, I think it’s a bit different because unlike then when EVERYBODY except 1 MAN HAD EVIL ON HIS HEART ON THE TIME, we live in a time where there is a greater influence of the Godly than before in any other era in history. Godly people have been ordained by the Lord to keep the culture around us in check. Though much of what we see happening around us is what the Bible describes will happen in the End Times, I don’t believe it’s all a FATALISTIC matter.
Psalm 12
For the director of music. According to sheminith . A psalm of David. [a]
1 Help, LORD, for the godly are no more;
the faithful have vanished from among men.
2 Everyone lies to his neighbor;
their flattering lips speak with deception.
Much of what we see is our fault and a matter of our not using the godly influence the Lord’s entrusted us with to impact the culture around us…., for in my opinion God gave man “dominin over the earth”. That is, to “rule over” something is to have absoulte authority and control over it. God has ultimate rule over the earth, and He excercises his authority with loving care. When God delegated some of his authority to the human race, He expected us to take responsibility for the environment and the other creatures that share our planet. When we’re careless/wasteful in this charge, that’s when we see further mess occur.
Homosexuality in the Pulpit/MEDIA, sexual immorality, THE “FREE LOVE” revolution of the Sixties, and a host of other things are what I believe to be the fault of the CHURCH, which often kept quiet while these things were developing…..& now have reached the point where it’s nearly impossible to hold them back/reverse the consequences.
There’s a reason why the church is called the “SALT OF THE EARTH”, FOR we’re to actively make a difference in the world we live in, just as salt changes meat’s flavor (Matthew 5:13), and it’s up to us to COUNTER-ACT the moral decay in society, just as salt preserves food from decay.
When we lose our desire to “salt” the earth with the love/message of God/His Word, we become useless & then the World heads for HELL WITHOUT RESTRAINT
Moving on, If cloning/splicing takes place, there’s still THE POSSIBILITY FOR THEM TO BE TRAINED IN RIGHTEOUSNESS by those of us who are holding down the fort for CHrist. And unlike the Genesis ACCOUNT, we have the POWER OF THE GOSPEL/CHRIST that’s able to completly REDEEM ANYONE IN CREATION.
Now, when it gets to the point where there are no true godly men/women left in society while unatural things take place, ALL BETS ARE OFF.
JMO….
October 10th, 2007 at 12:47 am
(IC: Talk of children born out of wedlock is not even close to being comparable. That was occurring almost since the start of man’s existence.)
I disagree. Even if something was happening since the start of exixtense doesn’t mean that it’s more acceptable than something else that’s more rare but bound to happen in the END TIMES.
Besides, there’re LOTS of things that happen in our society today than didn’t happen back then, like artificial insemination, for example weren’t present then….but there here now, and the Bible has an perspective for them.
And again, the Breath of LIFE COMES DIRECTLY FROM GOD (Genesis 2:7). There’s no contending that….unless one wishes to take the discussion around the dynamics of whether or not a clone’s even a man & therefore capable of having a soul like a man or whether he’s simply a living orgasism like any other creature. Even if it’s a clone, it’s made from a person. It has the Image of God, and we should be prepared when it happens to treat it as such rather than as something less than human.
I will say, though, that I DEFINATELY feel you on the fact that it SHOULDN’T BE DONE.
God’s Created order is we marry and produce children through the His ordained means of procreation.
Cloning goes against this, risking the manipulation/murder of another human life, as evidenced by the sheer number of embryos that’d have to be killed off before making a successful copy. To clone would be to rebel against God’s created order of having a mother/father, using the God-ordained procreative means, and attempting to ursurp God’s sovereign right to be the MAKER of the LIFE. Not only that, but the MYRIAD of ETHICAL ISSUES FACING LIFE FOR A CLONE that’d be unfair for them, like whether they could live their own way or had to replace the lifestyle of the ones they were cloned after….or the dynamics of something simple as family relations/purpose in society (and that’s another topic in itself). Even if one were to try and prepare to live life with clones present & make ready for them intergrating into society as much as possible ( which is what I’m about, should one ever be produced) The Ethical Implications/domino affect would still be ENORMOUS.,….FAR TOO ENORMOUS TO HANDLE EASILY.
As you said, this is a bad idea Brah
October 10th, 2007 at 1:00 am
As if this present issue is not? We’re not talking about the unnatural act of “human cloning”. We’re talking about mixing man and BEAST.
You’re kidding right? Church groups were speaking up during it all. However, it is ultimately the church’s duty to keep it’s self in check, even the apostles did not judge those on the outside, but those inside, 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. We might speak about things going on outside, but it’s not the churches fault, because the church can’t stop the deeds of children of the devil, 1 John 3. The devil’s children do the will of their father as we do the will of our Father.
Matthew 5:13-16, we are the salt and bring the light and that is the message of Jesus Christ. Those who don’t want the salt and refuse the light are going to sin regardless and you can pack them in salt and they’ll just be sinning in a salt wrap. The church can’t prevent what was to come, you’ve noted that and now tried to back spin and blame the church for not being salty enough. You were right when you realized the church can’t stop what had to occur and that is what we see in scripture. We hope we can delay things, but they come to pass.
We try to stop the pulpit pimps now, but 2 Thessalonians 2 must be fulfilled. We’re ultimately just helping the few that God called to Himself that are the loyal remnant. Which is why me and folks like Melvin chuckle when our detractors claim our efforts are not effective, because the pimps still have their flocks and their money. We know the evil will be claiming the Lord’s name, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. And the Anti-Christ will have no lack of popularity. We’re just doing all we can for those the Lord calls. Saints offer the message of truth to all, but you’ve got to be willing to accept that many do not want the truth and you can’t make them eat it.
We don’t know what the beast-boy will be yet. I’ll reserve statements about ministry for beast-boys till such time as beast-boys exist and hope to prevent efforts to make them for now. I’m prayerfully hoping the Lord will not permit such creations at all.
October 10th, 2007 at 1:10 am
Right on bro!
Even with cloned animals, they don’t look 100% exactly like and don’t act 100% exactly like what they were cloned from. Even their time in the womb introduces slight variations that always make the clone unique. Man can make clones, but he can’t make perfect copies. They might even have the same DNA signature, but they’re not the same. So if there were cloned people, they’d never be able to fill the role of perfectly replacing the person they were cloned from.
October 10th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Excellent points, Brah….
Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:3-7, one thing that always stood out to me was hearing the phrase “the secret power of lawlessness is already at work”, which means that the work that the anti-christ will do is already going. IMO, trying to splice human genes with animal genes (which is unatural) may fit the bill.
Lawlessness is the hidden, subtle, underlying force from which all sins comes from…….& Civilization still has a veneer of decency through law enforcement, education, science, and reason. But we’ve yet to see what the REAL HORROR OF COMPLETE LAWLESSNESS will look like, despite any unholy/criminal acts we’re horrified of.
This will only happen when “the one who now holds it back” is taken out of the picture ( which is God, IMO, showing the world it’s own depravity, how bitter it is to choose anything but the Lordship of Christ)………& technically, to attempt to create a “Beast-Boy” of some sort man simply be an preview of just that……for people totally without God can act NO BETTER than vicious animals, or something where the Beastial side has more control than the side of man in which shares any part with the Image of God.
On a humorous note, I wonder what it would’ve looked like in the Garden if God was looking for a mate for Adam & decided to take Adam’s Rib & splice it with a Hippo’s OR an Elephant in order to make something deemed “suitable” for Him. As crazy as that sounds, I wonder how similar the craziness would be to doing the same today…..(lol)
October 10th, 2007 at 11:20 am
I think some women are grimacing over that hippo/elephant comment. I’m sure they’re wondering why you didn’t wonder about God doing it to Adam from the dust
.
We could have a future that appears law abiding, but has no regard for Christ. And includes the mess like homosexuality, all other types of immorality and so on going on, in a “legal” manner.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
He HE (lOL) .
To note, this conversation reminded me of a dialouge I had with some folks a while back.
The question brought up was “Tell me….Why all the trees were given to eat from and yet the tree of knowledge was the only one denied (Genesis 2)? The person’s reasoning behind asking that question was as follows:
“the more I know, the more I want to know and it can become very addictive. It is also dangerous as to the amount of knowledge one has compared to the responsiblity which is placed upon the one with that knowledge.”
Basically, it was an issue with craving The desire for knowledge, but
Not being satisfied with what is provided.
I felt her thoughts were HIGHLY insightful
Remember the movie “Jurrassic Park”? I bring that up because some of your points reminded me of one point in the movie where Dr. Ian Malcom is talking to Mr. Hammond about the ramifications of creating a park full of Dinosaurs……& while Hammond is justifying it saying that DINOSAURS WERE MEANT TO BE EXTINCT FOR A REASON, & bringing them back only meant harm as they were UNATURAL to our world & could NOT BE PREDICTED as to how they’d act, meaning that there was no guarantee to knowing WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE & HOPE OF CONTROLING THE RESULTS………
& when Hammond said they had the tecnhnology/knowledge to do it & were actually doing what they believed to be a service to mankind, Malcom sharply disagreed with them, saying that they didn’t take the time to learn the knowledge for themselves/take responsibility for it as those before them did—-they simply studied the knowledge others before them aquired & manipulated it so they could get a profit of of it……
And as Malcom pointedly said,
Quote:
“But Your scientists spent so much time wondering whether or not they could do something that they never stopped to think if they should……”
On that last point, I think it’s worthwile to say that this is essentially what the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD & EVIL issue is about to a degree: Not weighing the ramifactaions of our actions in the knowledge we aquire & how we attain or use it…….rather than asking ourselves “Is this the knowledge I need right now….or does having this knowledge pose a threat somehow in the LONG-TERM rather than the SHORT-TERM results it may bring?”
we’ve ALL EATEN from the TREE.
Probably one of the greatest examples I can think of is the topic of SEX. God made it, it’s AWESOME, & BEAUTIFUL……at least, we done in CONTEXT/THE RIGHT TIMING
Song of Solomon 2:7
7 Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you
by the gazelles and by the does of the field:
Do not arouse or awaken love
until it so desires.
However, when discussed/opened PRE-MATURELY (such as in the ages of childhood when they shouldn’t be even thinking of it or ready to handle it), it creates problems……&
yet many kids have been exposed to the knowledge of it, as well as the practice of it, FAR TOO EARLY……which is now resulting in a MYRIAD of PROBLEMS (i.e. STD, early Pregnacies at earleir ages & far too young to handle, emotional issues that come from sleeping around & dealing with the severing of ties that INEVITABLY happen when you become ONE with another, which is another reason why God says DON’T DO IT WITH ANYONE ELSE BECAUSE SEX IS LIKE SUPERGLUE…& UNLESS YOU ARE READY TO BE FULLY COMMITTED TO SOMEONE & have the CONTEXT APPROPIATE TO HANDLE IT, your leaving them will rip something from you and apart of you will be LEFT BEHIND, ETC)
If children do not trust their parents with the knowledge they need & that it’ll be given to them when they need it, or trying to gain the knowledge of it in the WRONG MANNER, they’re only settting themselves up for danger…..& that’s exactly what happened with Adam & Eve.
According to my Study Bible,
Quote:
“Adam & Eve got what they wanted:an intimate knowledge of Good/Evil….but they got it by doing EVIL, & THE RESULTS were DISASTROUS…….
True freedom comes from OBEDIANCE & knowing what NOT TO DO……and the restrictions he gives us are for our good, helping us avoid evil. We have the freedom to walk in front of a speeding car, but we don’t need to be HIT before we realize it would be foolish to do so. Don’t listen to Satan’s temptations.
You don’t have to do evil to gain more experience and learn more about life…….or IMPROVE IT”
It’s all about TRUST……..& THIS ENTIRE ISSUE OF GENETIC ENGENERING/GENE SPLICING FALLS RIGHT INTO THAT.
October 10th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
To clarify, was it wrong for Adam & Eve to want to be like God?
Satan used a sincere motive to tempt Eve–”YOU WILL BECOME LIKE GOD”.
IMO, it wasn’t wronG FOR Eve to want to be like God. To become more like the Lord is what humanity was designed to do…..& our highest goal is to imitate HIM IN EVERYTHING WE DO……. Whether it be in imitating Him in reason, creativity, speech, or self-determination, or in showing compassion/love to others & trying to minister to their needs (be it spiritual OR physical, such as in the case of providing organs/blood transfusions that can be used to for people lacking suitable donors) as best we can.
However, Satan mislead Eve concerning the right way to accomplish this goal. He told her that she could become more like God by DEFYING GOD’S AUTHORITY, by TAKING GOD’S PLACE, and deciding for herself what was best for her life. In effect, he told her to become her own God.
But to become like God is not the same as trying to become GOD. It is to reflect his Characteristics and to recognize his authority over our lives. Like Eve, we often have a worthy goal but try to achieve it in the wrong way. We act like political candidates, playing off an election judge to be “voted” into office. When he does tjos, serving the people is no longer the highest goal.
Self-Exaltation leads to rebellion against God. As soon as we begin to leave God out of our plans, we are placing ourselves above him………& regarding genetic engeenering/cloning, there may be a worthy goal such as making body parts to help people or ensuring that others live long,……but if it’s done outside of the Ethics of Scripture, then it doesn’t really matter.
Nothing wrong with the desire to live long, for the Word makes clear that’s a desire He has placed inside of us:
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Moreover, THE HEALTH of our physical bodies are just as important to the Lord as our spiritual states:
I Timothy 4:6-7
7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
3 John 1:2-3
2Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well. 3It gave me great joy to have some brothers come and tell about your faithfulness to the truth and how you continue to walk in the truth.
However, as IC made clear, if the desire for doing so is based on the fact that there’s no hope beyond this life and one’s trying to do all they can to prolong their time here….WITHOUT JESUS….& willing to sacrifice COUNTLESS INNOCENT LIVES in order for that desire to be accomplished, THAT’S AN ISSUE.
Apologies for typing too long.
October 10th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I think the idea is not to be overly concerned with the physical, but rather focus on the spiritual.
Most translations other than the ESV word verse 8 to ensure the emphasis is made that the physical means FAR LESS than the spiritual, take the NASB translation for example when looking as several more verses: 1 Timothy 4:1-11. And I’m sure you know the KJV and NKJV are in agreement there.
The physical is not as important. It’s fine to pray your brothers and sisters in Christ have health and all going well as we see in 3 John 1:2-3. I hope the same for all here. However, the Lord does not desire that we ponder on preservation of “self”, but focus on Him, Luke 12:22, Luke 9:23.
What ever comes is as the Lord wills and we should be content with the simple raw basics alone, 1 Timothy 6:8. And almost everybody in America is at that point or even better. The few who are not are either saints we should be helping or targets for outreach ministry (gospel and alms).
Jesus says don’t worry about the physical. God instructs Paul through Christ via the Holy Spirit to tell us the physical exercise profits little and receive all food with thanksgiving:
1 Timothy 4:4 (New American Standard Bible)
Don’t worry about the physical, it is the spiritual that matters most. Not that we should be sloths or gluttons, we know gluttony is a sin. Over indulging to satisfy your fleshly desires to eat and do nothing more, Proverbs 28:7, Proverbs 23:20-21 and affirmed in the new covenant with scripture like Titus 1:10-14. We are to not be lazy slobs seeking yet another meal and we also are not to be concerned with our body for it’s own sake, but that our temple is in the service of the Lord Jesus Christ, to glorify God, 1 Corinthians 6:18-20.