Rekjalhew

September 26, 2007

Why I Run From All Who Claim the Title “Apostle” or “Prophet”.

by @ 10:03 pm. Filed under The Truth Shall Set you Free!

I found a brother on YouTube who uses the handle Oct31st1517. (The date Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses on the door of the Wittenberg Castle Church and the Protestant Reformation began.) This brother offers a good explanation of why I always avoid all who claim the title “Apostle” or “Prophet” and those individuals words are ALWAYS found to be loaded with false doctrines and false prophesies. The visual on this video is not good at all, but just check it out listening to the audio.



Are there Apostles and Prophets today?

Till those noted in Revelation 11 are known and their actions will be obvious, all others claiming the title “prophet” should be avoided. The term “apostle” ended with those noted as apostles in scripture. The words of the prophets and apostles in scripture are scripture because they were actually hearing from God. This is why we trust them, because we trust God and therefore trust scripture, but we do not trust the words of people today claiming new revelations.

The apostle Peter made it clear that scripture is the sure word.

2 Peter 1:16-21 (English Standard Version)

16) For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17) For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, ?This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,?

18) we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

19) And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,

20) knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

21) For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The apostle Paul made it clear that the things formerly a mystery were revealed to the all nations via scripture.

Romans 16:25-27 (English Standard Version)

25) Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

26) but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith?

27) to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Bottom line, if you can’t come from scripture, get out of my face!



21 Responses to “Why I Run From All Who Claim the Title “Apostle” or “Prophet”.”

  1. KyleNYC Says:

    Yo IC,

    Historically speaking, right before Jesus started his ministry, there were many, many false prophets and “messiahs” running around claiming to be the Christ. I wonder if El Diablo is stacking the deck with his apostles and prophets in anticipation of the true witnesses appearing on the scene?

    BTW, for a good read on the historical background during Jesus’ walk on earth, read “Behind the Scenes of the New Testament” by Paul William Barnett. It can be found on Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Behind-Scenes-Testament-William-Barnett/dp/0830813292

  2. KyleAndrews Says:

    IC,

    It is quite obvious by the personal character, unfulfilled prophecy, and the lack of the gifts they claim to have that these people are false. The facts could not be any clearer when juxtaposed with the Apostles of the Bible. Today these so-called Apostles and Prophets can’t prove one healing, prophecy, or gift. In fact the only gift they really claim is the gift of tongues because its the easiest one to lie about. I mean really, How hard is it to blabber unintelligible words? Sigh! These phonies don’t know when to give up.

    Kyle

  3. IndependentConservative Says:

    KyleNYC – Satan certainly is stacking the deck with his agents. And they all will inherit the lake of fire.

    KyleAndrews – I’m personally waiting for the false teacher who ACTUALLY SHOWS they’ve done something they claim to be able to accomplish. Will people follow the supposed “signs and wonders” or will they recognize the false doctrines being spewed? Benny Hinn and others, even if every person they touched was physically healed, they’re spreading more false doctrines than a storm cloud spreads rain. 2 Thessalonians 2, they’re falling away, the lawless one is coming and many are being deceived.

    That’s why it’s so important to test the doctrine. Because only those who don’t bow to the beast will be received by the Lord when He comes and the evil receives its reward, in the lake of fire.

  4. looking for truth Says:

    I too have avoided people bearing such “titles.” As a matter of fact, I do not attend church currently, because I have not found one that I trust. I have prayed about it, but I have not found one. I want to attend a church where truth is taught and the pastor believes the bible and whose motive is to do the will of God. I live in Atlanta. While there are churches in abundance here, I do not want to join myself to the ones I have seen. There are mega churches and satellite churches, and small social club churches. There are churches (more than one church) in the worst crime areas. What does that tell you? They meet and do not even impact the area.

  5. Gxg Says:

    Found an interesting argument on the subject that I was wondering whether or not someone could adress.

    “We have become as the scum of the world,

    the dregs of all things, even until now” (1 Cor. 4:13)

    A question that many today are asking is whether or not the office (or perhaps gift) of apostleship is still operative in the body of Christ.

    We hear many speak of the restoration of the apostolic and others even refer to an apostolic reformation that is coming to the church.

    People often line up at opposite ends of the spectrum on this question. I hear some deny that apostles are meant for today. They usually speak this way due to their belief that the presence of apostles in our day would threaten the finality and sufficiency of Scripture. They also fear the misuse of the authority that they believe is intrinsic to the office. At the other end of the spectrum are those who are quick to pin the tag “apostle” on virtually anyone who is gifted, articulate, and successful in ministry and church planting.

    My sense is that both views fail to grasp what the NT says about the office of apostleship. So let’s take a closer look at the biblical evidence.

    A. Levels of Apostleship

    The NT clearly identifies four levels of apostleship or four ways in which the word “apostle” is used.

    1) Jesus – In one sense, Jesus is the one true apostle, the “sent one” from God the Father (Heb. 3:1).

    2) The Twelve – The original twelve apostles (the eleven plus Matthias [Acts 1:26]) constitute a unique and closed company. They will have the distinct role of judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matt. 19:28) and their names will be inscribed on the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14).

    Note the qualifications that were required of the one who took the place of Judas (Acts 1:21-22).

    3) Paul and others – Another group of apostles, equal in authority to the twelve, includes Paul (1 Cor. 15:9), Barnabas (Acts 14:4,14), James, the brother of Jesus (Gal. 1:19; 1 Cor. 15:7), and perhaps Silas (1 Thess. 2:7), Andronicus (Rom. 16:7) and Junias (Rom. 16:7). 1 Cor. 15:7 may be referring to yet more apostles.

    · Although he was not included among the twelve, some would prefer to place Paul at Level 2 (or in a category unto himself), insofar as his authority was certainly equal to theirs (Gal. 1:11-17; 2 Cor. 12:11-12).

    · Although men such as Timothy and Apollos were significant in the life of the early church, they are never called apostles. See especially the discussion concerning Timothy in Wayne Grudem, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and for Today (Crossway Books), pp. 272-75.

    · A major point of dispute is whether Junias in Romans 16:7 is called an “apostle”. First of all, is Junias (Rom. 16:7) masculine or feminine? If feminine, then they are husband and wife. Recent examination of extensive Greek literature outside the Bible gives little help. The word Junias turned up only twice as a woman’s name and only once as a man’s name. If Junias is a woman, do we have reference here to a female apostle? It is possible (though not probable) to translate: “well known by the apostles,” rather than “outstanding among the apostles.”

    The point has been made that “since Andronicus and Junias were Christians before Paul was, it may be that their longstanding ministry (reaching back before Paul’s) is precisely what Paul might have in mind when he says ‘of note among the apostles.’

    They may well have been known among the apostles before Paul was even converted” (Piper/Grudem, 80). But we can’t be certain. Most believe that, if Junias was a female apostle, she should be classified at level 4 below.

    4) Messengers and Church Representatives – Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25) and the unnamed brethren of 2 Cor. 8:23 (possibly including Titus) fall into this category in which the term “apostle” (35x in Paul, 80x in the NT) is used in a non-technical, broad sense.

    No one denies that there may be level 4 apostles today, people who function as church planters, ambassadors and/or representatives of a local church. Few, if any, want to argue that there are level 1 or 2 apostles today. But are there level 3 apostles today?

    In his Cato Lectures of 1969, entitled “The Signs of an Apostle”, C. K. Barrett argued for “eight persons, or groups of persons, all denoted, with varying degrees of propriety, by the term ‘apostle'” (72).

    However, he appears to me to have unnecessarily made distinctions among those who belong to the same general category.

    B. Criteria for Apostleship

    What qualifications are essential for Level 3 apostleship?

    1) Eye-Ear Witness to the Risen Christ – To be an apostle one must have both seen and heard the risen Christ. This is implied by Acts 1:21-22; 1 Cor.. 9:1, and 15:6-9.

    But simply seeing the risen Christ did not make someone an apostle, for many saw and heard Him (e.g. 1 Cor. 15:6) who were not apostles.

    2) A Personal Call and Commission from Jesus – This is evident from the statements of Paul himself (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 1:1,5; 1 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 1:1; etc.).

    C. Characteristics of Apostleship

    There are other features or characteristics of apostolic ministry that must be noted. Whereas the presence of these factors does not make one an apostle, their absence may well call into question the authenticity of one’s claim to that office.

    One would be hard-pressed to find an apostle in the NT whose life was not characterized by these features.

    (1) Success in ministry (1 Cor.9:2; cf. 2 Cor. 3:1-3; [Paul appealed to the reality of their conversion as evidence of the authenticity of his apostolic calling]; but non-apostles also have great evangelistic success; see Philip in Acts 8).

    (2) Signs and Wonders (Acts 5:12; Romans 15:19; 2 Cor. 12:12; but non-apostles also performed signs and wonders; see Stephen in Acts 6 and Philip in Acts 8).

    (3) Extreme suffering (Col. 1:24; 2 Cor. 4:7-15; 11:23-33; etc.; certainly countless others also suffer).

    (4) Christ-like life and humility (2 Cor. 1:12; 2:17; 3:4-6; 4:2; 5:11; 6:3-13; 7:2; 10:13-18; 11:6,23-28; but there is no reason why a non-apostolic believer might not live at this same level of maturity).

    (5) Special insight into divine mysteries (Eph. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:16; Rom. 11:25-32; 2 Cor. 12:1-4,7).

    (6) Authority and the power to enforce it (Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 4:18-21; 5:5; 2 Cor. 10:8; 13:10; 1 Tim. 1:20).

    (7) God-orchestrated stigma (1 Cor. 4:9-13; 2 Cor. 6:3-10; 12:1-10). I often wonder if those who quickly accept the title of “Apostle” have bothered to read these texts, especially 1 Cor. 4:9-13.

    D. The Writing of Scripture

    It is widely assumed that an essential part of apostleship is the authority to write inspired Scripture. There are three problems with this view:

    1) Scripture nowhere asserts that all apostles could write Scripture simply because they were apostles.

    2) Several of the apostles did not, in fact, write Scripture. Does this disqualify them from being apostles?

    3) People other than apostles did, in fact, write Scripture (Mark, Luke, the author of Hebrews, Jude).

    There is no explicit or conclusive evidence that apostleship, per se, entailed the authority to write Scripture or required that one do so. Therefore, it is conceivable that God could raise up Level 3 apostles subsequent to the closing of the biblical canon without threatening the latter’s finality and sufficiency.

    The canon is closed, not because God has stopped speaking, nor because there are no more apostles, but because God sovereignly closed it. God simply ceased inspiring and preserving canonical revelation.

    Basing the finality of the canon on the cessation of apostleship is disastrous. How can the absence of apostles guarantee the closing of the canon when non-apostles wrote Scripture?

    Such a view would require us to assert, absurdly, that as long as there are non-apostolic Christians the canon is open!

    E. Apostles and the Foundation of the Church

    Some have argued from Ephesians 2:20 that apostles belonged exclusively to the foundational period of the church and not to its subsequent history when the superstructure is being built. However:

    1) This ignores vv. 21-22 where Paul refers to the superstructure as under construction, so to speak, as he speaks/writes (note the consistent use of the present tense in vv.

    21-22). In other words, the apostles of v. 20, among whom was Paul, were also contributing to the superstructure, of which the Ephesians were a contemporary part, simultaneous with their laying the foundation on which it was being built.

    2) To use an analogy, once a man establishes a company, writes its by-laws, articulates its vision, hires employees, and does all the work essential in laying the foundation for its future work and productivity, he does not necessarily cease to exist or to serve the company in other capacities.

    As Jack Deere points out, “the founding director of a company or corporation will always be unique in the sense that he or she was the founder, but that does not mean the company would not have future directors or presidents” (Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, 248).

    3) The argument is that once apostles ceased to function foundationally, they ceased to function altogether, as if the only purpose for apostles was to lay the foundation of the church. But nowhere does the NT say this, least of all in Eph. 2:20.

    This text need say no more than that apostles and prophets laid the foundation once and for all and then ceased to function in that capacity. But nothing suggests that they ceased to function in other capacities, much less that they ceased to exist altogether.

    Certainly it is true that only apostles and prophets lay the foundation of the church, but it is anything but certain that such is the only thing they do.

    The only text that might suggest apostleship was limited to the first century is 1 Cor. 15:8 where Paul says that Jesus appeared to him “last of all”. Paul Barnett argues from this that “Paul himself sought to establish the limited extent of the numbers of apostles. His careful words that Christ ‘appeared to me last of all’ . . . serve to show that while there were apostles before him, there were no apostles after him.

    According to Paul he is both ‘the least’ and ‘the last’ of the apostles” (“Apostle,” in Dictionary of Paul and his Letters [IVP 1993], 50).

    But this verse may be understood differently. Paul is listing those to whom Jesus appeared in order to prove His bodily resurrection.

    He appeared to Peter, then the twelve, after that to more than five hundred brethren, then to James, then to other apostles, and last of all, i.e., last among all those mentioned here to whom he appeared following his resurrection, to Paul.

    Certainly Paul was the last to whom Jesus had appeared to that point in time, but nothing in the text suggests that Jesus could not or would not appear to someone subsequent to Paul. Finally, Paul is not describing Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances in order to prove his or anyone else’s apostleship, but to prove that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead.

    After all, he mentions His appearing to more than five hundred people, none of whom were apostles.]

    F. Apostolic Authority

    One reason people balk at the mention of modern apostles is based on their erroneous belief that NT apostleship entailed an absolute authority that required unquestioning obedience. But see Galatians 2:11-21 for a clear counter-example.

    Whereas no apostle ever made a mistake when writing Scripture, they did not live continuously under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in such a way that all their opinions and/or actions were infallible.

    Furthermore, if God should truly call and commission apostles today, we should no more fear their authority than we do that of pastors and elders who likewise have been specifically raised up by the Holy Spirit to lead, direct, and oversee the church of the Lord Jesus Christ (see Acts 20:28; 1 Thess. 5:12-13; 1 Peter 5:1-5; Heb. 13:17).

    G. Apostles: First in Authority, Last in Privilege

    (1) First in authority (1 Cor. 12:28; 14:37; 5:3-5; see also Acts 4:32-37; 8:14ff.; 2 Cor. 10:8)

    (2) Last in privilege (1 Cor. 4:9-12; 9:22-23)

    Does Scripture teach that apostleship was restricted to the first century church? No.

    Are there apostles today? I certainly believe that it is the agenda of the Holy Spirit to bring them forth before the coming of the Lord.

    However, there is considerable debate as to whether those with an “apostolic anointing” today are in the office of an apostle. I am open to the possibility that they are. But if so, they must meet the criteria set forth above and display the characteristics portrayed in the NT.

    Ephesians 4:11-16 strongly suggests that apostles are essential “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ”.

    This statement pertains not only to the apostolic but also to the ministries of prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher (or pastor-teacher), all of which I expect to see functioning fully before the coming of the Lord.

  6. hubison Says:

    IC,
    See his response on apostlic god child on the trinity.This brother knows scripture.

  7. IndependentConservative Says:

    hubison – Yes I’ve seen most if not every one of his videos and subscribe to be notified the moment he makes another new one 😉 .

    I just selected that one to post for now. But he has several other excellent videos and I think some of his material (his excellent video about “Pentecostalism” in particular) is misunderstood by some folks.

    While I run from people who proclaim the title “prophet”, I realize that people do speak prophesy in the 1 Corinthians 14:3 sense today by offering words based in scripture to edify the church.

  8. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg – I will respond to your post and anyone else can feel free to respond as well, but next time, do us a favor and link to your source, instead of doing a copy/paste job here.

  9. art123 Says:

    If there were apostles today, they’ll be raising the dead, healing the sick, judging the wicked and denying themselves for the sake of the cross. Jesus said that you should know them by their fruits. God laid the foundation of the church which included the twelve disciples once. No such position stands today, not evermore, including the prophets. Any self-appointed person who goes against the scriptures are false prophets and teachers.

  10. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg – As long as you continue to grant what is no longer granted you will be prone deception from those who claim the title “apostle” today.

    Nobody today is to claim the title “apostle”, period. All who had the title were noted in scripture and the reasons for their selection given.

    1 Corinthians 15:7 does not infer that there were apostles not mentioned in scripture. Christ, post resurrection was seen by all of the apostles and others Paul noted. Nobody is getting a special viewing of Christ resurrected today, so it’s moot to imply anyone can assume the title “apostle” today.

    Paul was not a “level 2” apostle, him speaking humbly of himself does not actually make him lower. Christ was made lower than the angels and is Lord over them, Hebrews 2:7. The idea and example for us is to be the servant, not claiming to be the top. Peter notes that many have twisted Paul’s writing to their own peril, 2 Peter 3.

    Timothy was called an evangelist, period, 2 Timothy 4:5

    Gxg, have you even read Wayne Grudem’s book, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and for Today? You should not dump copy/paste material like this that references material if you did not read it. I’m just wondering if you even read what you’re recommending to others via your copy/paste.

    Junias was not an apostle. Junias knowing the apostles and the apostles knowing Junias does not make Junias an apostle. The apostles documented who they were.

    Yes Christ is the Chief Apostle and High Priest, Hebrews 3:1, but the apostles who established the church were clearly noted and these plays on scripture prove nothing other than that no others were in the office of “apostle”. These games of “level 4” or “level 3” with the title “apostle” are almost as appalling as people who claim they are a “god” with a little g. Christ did have a few who He kept closer to Himself than others, but this does not denote those few were to be seen as over the others. The paper you pasted does not even mention how a few were spending a bit more time with Christ than others. For us they are all on the same “level” given they established the foundation.

    Apostles had seen the resurrected Christ and were picked directly by Christ or had seen Christ resurrected and the then existing apostles picked them. It ended with them and nobody like Peter appointed anyone to be an “apostle” at the end of their life. The office of “apostle” started and ended with them. (I make the mention of Peter given the games played in Catholicism.)

    There is no explicit or conclusive evidence that apostleship, per se, entailed the authority to write Scripture or required that one do so. Therefore, it is conceivable that God could raise up Level 3 apostles subsequent to the closing of the biblical canon without threatening the latter’s finality and sufficiency.

    Apostles could write as they were led by the Lord to do so. The words they spoke were the Word of God. We don’t have a full record of the words of Christ, never mind those of the apostles as the Lord led them to speak. They recorded what was needed and is the best source today, Romans 16:25-27. That statement does not offer any foundation in the reliable foundation which is scripture, to claim some new “Level 3” apostle today.

    Those who wrote scripture in the NT who were not apostles themselves recorded what they received from the apostles and recorded the deeds of the apostles. They acted as the scribes to the apostles, but the source is still Christ and the Word received by His apostles from God, through Christ via the Holy Spirit.

    Regarding Ephesians 2:20-22, that is being totally misread to imply that others outside of the apostles laid the foundation. Others including us help to build the church, the apostles set the foundation on Christ. I recommend you read over 1 Corinthians 3. There Paul an apostle notes he laid the foundation, he was the wise master builder who put the foundation on Christ and he planted Apollos. The apostles laid the foundation and scripture is clear on this fact. The foundation is not rebuilt today, we simply stand on that foundation.

    Regarding the mentions of a corporation, we’re not talking about a corporation, we’re talking about the church. It’s dangerous to use references that have no foundation at all in scripture. Let scripture be the foundation for your position, not the words of others.

    You or rather this paper you’ve copy/pasted is trying to prove a point with no foundation when it is stated that scripture does not state that others won’t see the risen Christ. That’s like saying I can claim that I’ll see Elijah tomorrow. Or a burning bush outside will talk to me tomorrow. It’s not going to happen because that work is finished. Not that God can’t, but He’s done it and while it’s not noted it won’t happen again, don’t count on it occurring either. Christ has shown Himself as risen and you walk this walk via faith. The reason YOU AND NOBODY ELSE WILL SEE THE RISEN SAVIOR NOW IS BECAUSE HE HAS TAKEN HIS SEAT, Hebrews 1:13. He’s not getting up to show Himself and establish a new apostle. Nobody is seeing Christ resurrected today and even as that paper notes, nobody is displaying the moves of the spirit that the apostles exhibited. The next to display what might appear to be major “signs and wonders” will be the anti-Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2.

    You (or this paper you copied) site Galatians 2:11-21 as a balk to apostolic authority, but that was Paul who Christ called to be an apostle addressing Peter who was an apostle. And it did not involve instructions that Peter gave to anyone, but rather Peter’s own actions in who he choose to eat with. All this proves is that Paul is an apostle on level with all others.

    Scripture does not note more apostles will come, there are no more. You depart from scripture to create new ones.

    We have unity in Christ via scripture.

    Ephesians 4:11-16 does not imply there will always be apostles. There were some appointed to apostles as the scripture notes, but no more today. Before the apostles there were prophets and even one noted in the book of Acts who spoke to Paul about his upcoming trials. Those are who was appointed then and now there are evangelist, pastors and teachers and they do offer prophesy, but are not in the office of “prophet”. Prophesy today is forth telling from scripture, plain and simple and fulfills what is noted in 1 Corinthians 14:3. (Not some new “foretelling”, scripture is closed, Revelation 22:18.) All roles in ministry are not in any always expected to “have to” always function, and Israel saw about 500 years where they had no prophet, until John the Baptist. The next “prophets” are noted in Revelation 11. See the next to have the title “prophet” are written of clearly, no mention of new coming apostles.

    The apostles noted that we should imitate them, so being “least” does not at all end with them and in fact was recommended as the model, versus the abuses we see by those heading the false prosperity doctrine. See where Paul said we should “imitate” him in 1 Corinthians 4. This does not mean more will be apostles, we just work to imitate them as they did Christ.

    And I’m not seeing scripture that uses the term “apostle” in a generic or general sense, although the paper pasted above claims:

    the term “apostle” (35x in Paul, 80x in the NT) is used in a non-technical, broad sense.

    Scripture like Philippians 2:25 is referenced by the paper, but that does not feature use of the term “apostle”.

  11. Gxg Says:

    Two things, sir…

    One, in case it came off that way, never did I say that I agreed with everything the paper said. I simply said it was INTERESTING & that I wanted some feedback on it as to what you/others felt. Sorry if I’m making a deal out of something that shouldm’t be so, but your response makes it seem like I was being labeled as FOLLOWING THIS GUY WHOLEHEARTDELY. That’s not the case……though I do agree with him on many things.

    Two, as you requested, go here to see the full article.

    http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/are-apostles-for-today
    My apologies for not posting it previously, but I thought it’d be obvious that the article wasn’t mine & that anyone could simply ask me for it if they wished. Glad, though, to see you did.

    Again, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the article.

  12. Gxg Says:

    To note, regarding this comment:

    IC: “Gxg, have you even read Wayne Grudem’s book, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and for Today? You should not dump copy/paste material like this that references material if you did not read it. I’m just wondering if you even read what you’re recommending to others via your copy/paste.”)

    I’ve investigated the arguments from it, & I HIGHLY ENJOY/RECCOMMENDED it, especially in light of how biblically based/ well-balanced they were–especially in light of the various extremes I’ve often seen on the issue—- & that I’ve experienced/practiced the same things described in it MULTIPLE TIMES, as well as others in various churches…..& nothing but GOOD FRUIT has come about from it, from encouragement in other brethren to having even more of a vibrant walk with the Lord, Galatians 5:22)

    In My opinion, his stance seems very reasonable, incorporating all the facts….& Even excellent/respected CONSERVATIVE theologians, such as John Piper (whose stances I side with who’s also good friends with the author of the article I posted earlier) & others havce said the same….. To which I take to heart seriously.

    (Edited by IndependentConservative: I’ve cut out the remainder of your comment. I’ve given you the reasons with scripture why the office of apostle is CLOSED. You’re not speaking of your own mind, but continually pointing to the words of others, so I’m cutting it off. Now discontinue it. I wanted you to answer the question and you’ve done that. Beyond that, if you want to comment, offer your own thoughts written by your own hand. Not that I’m against anyone making outside references, how could I be when I’ve done it with the post, but you’ve done nothing but make outside references. You’re going to have to display more of what you can say on this issue yourself of your own hand or move on from comments on this thread. If scripture is the guide, offer some commentary with it and not simply lists of links to what others say. I know the links you cited support a good deal of what I’ve noted, but still, lets have a discussion in these comments where we do a little more than toss out links.)

  13. Gxg Says:

    Also, if anyone’s interested, here’s another SOLID resource on the issue of APOSTLES/PROPHETS that has truly blessed me on examining the issues.

    http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/about/

    If you’ve ever heard of “Elijah LIST”/Post Apostolic/Prophetic Movement, with people leading the way like Kim Clement/others, this one really does IN-DEPTH studies into the errors promoted by the movement…..

    Being Reformed Charismatic, I recieve emails from one of my other charismatic friends on the “Elijah List” all the time…..& it’s amazing the level of foolishnes they’re able to get away with ALL THE TIME. But hey, it’s the END TIMES ( II Timothy 3)

    Hope it helps, sir..

  14. IndependentConservative Says:

    Yes I’ve heard of the so-called “New Apostolic Church” movement. It’s a real mess. Men who feel they are apostles and that they must pray for people in order for them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. An abuse of Acts 8:14-17. The case with the Samarians was unique though, given they were not highly thought of. The apostles having to go and pray for them was on par with Peter being sent to visit Cornelius in Acts 10. It was a first time event for these people to join as brothers in Christ. Although Peter did not lay hands in the case of Cornelius, the Samarians were thought VERY lowly of and the apostles having to lay hands ensured the Samarian converts would be fully seen as brothers in the faith. In some cases the apostles laid hands and in other cases the Holy Spirit came without that.

    The Apostles of the Lord Jesus were granted something unique, that NOBODY can claim today and that is noted in John 20:23. This is something else that was unique to an apostle and ONLY the apostles.

    Other cases of hands being laid and the Holy Spirit being received were Acts 9:17. It was SAUL! The fact the Lord informed Ananias and he was instructed by the Lord to visit Saul in a condition where Ananias was not feeling threatened (Saul was blind and in repentance to the Lord for his previous evil ways), then laid hands, helped to show when Saul received his sight and the Holy Spirit that Saul/Paul was honestly called to the Lord. No indication is given that Saul spoke in tongues at that moment and so no assumption should be made that he did. But he did receive Holy Spirit. Ananias was not an apostle, but the Lord Jesus sent him to get Saul and take Saul to the Apostles. The Lord worked via Ananias and let Ananias know the situation ahead of time. The Lord had already made it known that Saul was called to Him, it was not Ananias, but the Lord at work. As it always is the Lord at work, but the Apostles were informed they had a gift in John 20:23 that nobody else has. The Catholics try and play like they have the gift by somebody talking to one of them in a little booth 👿 .

    (Back to cases of the Holy Spirit coming by laying on of hands by the Apostles.)
    Then there is Acts 19, where people in Ephesus only knew John’s baptism. Of course they had not received the Holy Spirit before. Hands were laid, they believed and received the Holy Spirit. Paul had what was noted in John 20:23. Paul being a Jew, them speaking in tongues in his presence gave the sign that Peter also witnessed in Acts 10. So the Apostles knew the Lord really did offer salvation to various peoples.

    We know the Lord saves as He calls people to Himself via those who are His own hearing the preached Word and they immediately receive the Holy Spirit when their heart is opened to Christ by Him and they are saved.

    There is no longer a requirement of some “apostle” having to lay hands and those men running the “New Apostolic” con game are not apostles at all. They’re con men.

    Also, that “New Apostolic” bunch is into praying for dead people. They’ve read what Christ did as noted in 1 Peter 3:19-20 and beleive that they can pray salvation to the dead. They don’t realize that they can’t speak to the dead who were not saved, they are not Christ. AND they certainly can’t bring the dead a message of salvation. The dead had their chance in life. Those who were not called by the Lord, we can’t undo His will. What Christ did was to proclaim Himself to those who lived before His resurrection. That is not a work that we can repeat, because we now live post resurrection. So we can’t go speaking to spirits in hell and there is no such thing as “purgatory”. The “New Apostolic” cult is trying to un-work a judgment that belongs to God alone. God decides who goes to hell and we can’t “pray” them out!

    Yea, they (New apostolics) are one bunch that needed to be noted. I’ve been aware of them.

  15. DL Foster Says:

    These new apostolics heavily borrows from Catholic religious tradition, which of course is clearly heretical.

    IC, calling them con men is charitable.

    Look at this gallery of clowns.

  16. IndependentConservative Says:

    DL – that certainly is a gallery of clowns. Many of them even wear full clown garb 😆 .

    If I ran a TV network, I think I’d just display the scrolling words of Matthew 23 repeatedly. Maybe somebody would figure it out!

  17. Gxg_G2 Says:

    Do that, Brah, & you may get yourself killed like Christ did……but hey, if it happens or suffering of some other kind, guess you could consider it a reverse blessing ( Luke 6:20-23)

    Gxg-G2

  18. Gxg_G2 Says:

    My bad, by the way, regarding the links. I’m so used to simply analyzing information on my own & wanting to give out solid resources for others to do likewise(Proverbs 15:7 )

    Regarding my personal thoughts on the issue, my concern is not with those believing there are modern “apostles” who simply function as church planters, missionaries or effective Christians leaders who have a calling to a particular ministry or geographical region.

    Also, it doesn’t bother me seeing believing there are modern “prophets” in the sense of Christians who operate strongly in he New Testament gift of prophecy & alerting the church to something through bringing attention to what the WORDS of the LORD IN SCRIPTURE are when no one else will listen.

    For me, the line’s drawn at the point where Christians promote modern “apostles” whose authority cannot be questioned & “prophets” who add on DOCTRINALLY to the WORD OF GOD (i.e. coming up with new revelations of what GOD’s standards are, changing what God said is right or wrong, etc)

    Regarding the term “apostle”, in my studies I’ve found that the term simply means “one sent” as messenger, authorized agent, or missionary…..& though the term became an offical title for Jesus’s 12 disciples after his death/ressurection (Acts 1:25-26, Ephesians 2:20), that doesn’t indicate that the term cannot be used today of others.

    To clarify my stance on Apostles, There are NO apostles as the original apostles were apostles. NONE….

    From my understanding, the term was used in the Bible to refer to others (i.e. using the basic meaning of the term, “messengers”, which is where the man in the article I referenced was coming from when he stated “the term “apostle” (35x in Paul, 80x in the NT) is used in a non-technical, broad sense.” & used the general definition to refer to messengers/church representatives -such as Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25) and the unnamed brethren of 2 Cor. 8:23 (possibly including Titus), & people such as Junias, who was labeled alongside Adronicus as “oustanding among the apostles” (Rom. 16:7)).

    Regarding the latter point of Junias, I’m still wrestling with how many biblical scholars, even my “Life Application Study Bible”, indicates that the phrase “outstanding among the apostles” COULD mean they had distinguished themselves as apostles

    However, even in light of that, it was not meant in the same way as it was used when referring to the ORIGINAL APOSTLES—who were AUTHORATIVE IN ALL THEY SAID FOR THE CHURCH TO DO.

    Again, definitions are key when it comes to the issue of others using the term “apostle”….understanding the differences presented here, & distinguishing between ‘The 12 Apostles’ and apostles in a general sense by function rather than function and title given by Christ.

    Also, IMO, what an apostle is, does come from the meaning of the word:”one sent.” But it also goes beyond that. THe apostles’ primary gifting was to go to a new area and establish a local body.

    They were also gifted to act in a multitude of the gifts as the church was birthing and growing. This would seem to make sense because in a new body of new believers, the individuals would not immediately start using their gifts. So an apostle would be a teacher, a pastor, an administrator etc. etc. But apostles don’t stay long term with each new body they establish. Though they may continue to advise, exhort and guide by follow-up/training, they will be looking to see other individuals raised up who will exercise all the gifts that they have been using…..

    This is something that others besides the ORIGINAL apostles, such as Timothy, Barnabus, & others did (Acts 11:25-26, Acta 15:36-40, Acts 16:1-5, Acts 17:1-9, Acts 18-20)

    1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Thessalonians 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

    Has anything changed today? Don’t we need apsotles to birth new local bodies and nurse them to health? Yes we do……..And seeing that the Bible makes no mention of these giftings coming to an end, and that we have people who actually do these things today, Yes I do believe the gift continues.

    But, again, THEY ARE NOT ON PAR with the ORIGINAL 12.

    The danger lies in The most popular use of the term today, in which people have the SAME AUTHORITY and calling Jesus gave His selected 12 apostles.

    In this respect, APOSTLES DO NOT EXIST

    Leaving out Scripture references,

    1. The church was founded upon the apostles.

    2. Apostles were eye-witnesses to the resurrection (or the resurrected Christ).

    3. Apostles were personally chosen by Jesus Christ.

    4. Apostles were authenticated by miraculous signs.

    5. Apostles had absolute authority.

    6. Apostles have an eternal and unique place of honor.

    Moreover, no one today can fit the qualifications of Acts 1:21-22,
    * no one has received the same kind of appointment that Paul received,
    * no one can write Scripture,
    * the canon of Scripture is complete, and
    * the Bible teaches that elders/bishops/pastors are to lead each local church.

    Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” Acts 1:21-22

    There is no one alive today who fits the qualifications given in Acts 1:21-22.

    * “But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.” Acts 9:15-16

    * “. . . even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:15-16

    Additionally, the books of the New Testament are all based on apostolic authority.

    Having the New Testament, which is complete, we do not need anyone to give to us “new” teachings of Jesus; we already have what we need in the written Word.

    Hope this clarifies where I stand….

    Being part Charismatic, I’ve witnessed first hand how many in charismatic pentecostal movements have firmly believed that some living today are/were also apostles.

    To see it is truly sad, for many cults have been founded and ruled by men who claim to have apostolic power…..& with these kinds of leaders telling the people what they can believe and claiming to be the current source of revelation from God.

  19. Gxg_G2 Says:

    My apologies if the post was too long. Looking back, I should’ve edited it moreso so it wouldn’t be repetitive. But that’s as far as I could go writing in my own hand.

    Also, for the sake of reference, here’s one of the research sites I studied regarding the differing uses of “Apostle”….

    http://preceptaustin.org/ephesians_411.htm

  20. IndependentConservative Says:

    Scripture never notes anyone but the original apostles of the Lord Jesus as “apostles”, so it makes no sense to grant such a title to anyone else. There are other people in scripture who did things like plant churches and never were they termed “apostle”. We use the term to identify the original master builders who laid the foundation on the cornerstone being the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not a term to be used of men (or women because I saw a lady on TBN calling herself “apostle”) today.

    Men planting churches today can be termed “bishop”, “overseer” or even “evangelist”. I can’t find a foundation for men today using the term “apostle” and we see those using it are the same people running false doctrine. When I see them coming, I cover my ears and walk the other way. And unlike the Apostles we see in scripture, these people claiming the title today NEVER leave without begging for money. You’ll never see them claiming 2 Corinthians 11:7. Today the ones claiming the title take the best seats and wear the finest clothes in the assembly. Far be it from them to look and act like a true “servant”.

    I spent many years in a Trinitarian “Pentecostal Holiness” assembly and knew many Oneness Pentecostals. (I did the babbling and junk, but when some folks went Oneness, they totally lost me on that game, cause I could never twist a verse to support the heresy of Oneness doctrine.) I’ve seen how they (Trinitarian and Oneness too) view these people they call “apostle” and “prophet”. Like you said, it’s sad.

  21. IndependentConservative Says:

    Don’t worry about typing long, just don’t copy/paste long 😉 .

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