Rekjalhew

July 16, 2007

The Fact I Can No Longer Deny, Predestination is Real!

by @ 1:19 pm. Filed under The Truth Shall Set you Free!

A matter Christians have inside debates over is the matter of predestination. Are all who are going to Heaven is either already a pre-set matter, or is it all determined on the fly based on our individual actions? There’s the Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security view versus the I decided to follow Jesus and only remain saved of my own free will because I could leave and deny God if I choose view. I’ve made it known before that I was pretty much of the later view, but with more study in scripture I find myself now solidly of the former view. Predestination is real and those who are truly saved can never be unsaved.

I think the issue is one of perception. If things are viewed from our vantage point, I one day realized I was a sinner and needed redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ. I was sincerely convicted of my sins and made a confession to the Lord that I know changed me. Now no matter how much my flesh prompts me to do wrong and at times I do stumble, I still keep running back to Jesus. I continually desire to fight against sinful urges. If I learn that something I’m doing is sinful, I work to change. So is it really “ME” that decided I needed salvation? Honestly NO. Because I am human and man is not capable of good.

Galatians 5:24 (New King James Version)

24) And those who are Christ?s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I am Christ’s not my own. That means God knew and called me because HE KNEW I was HIS OWN.

John 10:27-30 (New King James Version)

27) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father?s hand.

30) I and My Father are one.?

So maybe you can “choose” to leave and deny Christ if you happen to call yourself a Christian and that would prove you are not God’s. The Father gave me to His Son and this occurred before the foundation of the world. So I won’t deny Him. He knew before the foundation of the world that I would embrace Him, because He gave me the clarity in heart and spirit to know He is the ONLY means to salvation and eternal life. So He knows, that no matter what I’m going to keep faith in Him and physically die realizing He is Lord, to be granted life eternal with Him. If that is the case for you, it is the Lord and not you who brought this about. He planned it for you before time began.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (New King James Version)

8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Only by the grace of God am I saved!


The Book of Life

God provides us an undeniable revelation of the fact He has always known who His own are and that they would hear His voice, The Book of Life.

The Book of Life was written before we were born and the names in it have been there since the foundation of the world. It?s perfect and does not need any correction. It has no ?blots?. The names in it will receive eternal life and nobody can prevent that. It is not a book that receives periodic updates or revisions. It is still in it?s first printed edition and has no errata, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:27.

Please understand, that those who you see claim they are saved, even if they say a cookie cutter confession of faith, if they do that and then go out killing, pillaging and so on for the rest of their life and even denying Jesus as Lord, they never were actually saved. This is the quandary I’ve had with some who are of the Once Saved Always Saved view. Some feel anyone who says they love and embrace Jesus is saved, Jesus says that is not true.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New King James Version)

21) ?Not everyone who says to Me, ?Lord, Lord,? shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22) Many will say to Me in that day, ?Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name??

23) And then I will declare to them, ?I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!?

The Lord knows who He called and changed, regardless of what we see anyone do or hear them say. Never knew, means never as in the Lord never saved them ever, even when everybody thought they were saved.

Only those whose names were not in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world will ever worship the beast, Revelation 13:5-8.

Know that God wrote out the names of members of His team even before the first human team member breathed a single breath.

Revelation 3:5 notes that those who overcome won’t have their named “blotted” from the Book of Life. This does not say that God will blot anyone from the book. The names in the book are of people God KNOWS will not fail Him.

Revelation 22:19 speaks of people who actually NEVER had access to eternal life. They never were saved. Their names never were actually in the Book of Life to being with. Their share of the tree of life was taken away just like all who never truly heard the Lord?s voice. None mentioned there were ever in the Book of Life. This is why they try and remove things from the book of Revelation. Anyone tampering with that book does not believe in the authority of scripture and revelation through Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit as he promised his disciples in John 16:12-13. This was to them and not the folks who make up extra-biblical so-called ?revelations? today. Those who attempt to add to that book should consider Revelation 22:18. Avoid all who attempt to add their own so-called revelations about what is to come. Anyone tampering with scripture is not a true believer in the first place and all who are not true believers lose their part in the Book of Life and lose access to the tree of life. They lost it and it was already known because they never were in the book.

(ESV used for the sake of clarity)

Revelation 17:8 (English Standard Version)

8) The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

If your name is in the Book of Life, you won’t marvel to see the beast and do his bidding. You’ll be one who stands with the Lord.

Revelation 17:14 (English Standard Version)

14) They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

God does not need to make any ?corrections? to the book He authored. The called and chosen are faithful to Him and THAT is why they/we have works, because of faith in Him. No works can save a man, only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Some of us sheep wandered around a bit, allowed bad doctrine to toss us around, but still God ensured that we would hear His voice and leave false teachers and endorsers of bad doctrine behind, Ephesians 4:11-16. Whether we hear it gently and obey or need a bright light to knock us over while on the road to Damascus, the Lord ensures that His sheep WILL hear His voice, Acts 9.

If God did not know who to put in the book from the beginning, He could have never have foretold of anything that was to come. We act out the play, but God has always known and designated who would make it to have eternal life.



33 Responses to “The Fact I Can No Longer Deny, Predestination is Real!”

  1. DL Foster Says:

    IC, this is a very good “perspective” of whether we are saved.

    My contention has been (since my own study)
    (1) I cannot keep myself, therefore it is God’s sole responsibility to keep me or either throw me away. The former is a concrete teaching in scripture. Jude 24, 25.
    (2)My relationship with God is secure, my fellowship with him is not depending on me. However, repentance and agreement with Him restores fellowship.
    1 John 1:8,9

    We are having a conversation centered around that here re Carlton Pearson’s situation. I said that only God knows whether a person truly repented initially and was “saved”, but we can judge current relationship and fellowship according to lifestyle and fruit.

    Its funny in the church we always tell people they have to be 100% sure that they are going to heaven or saved. The only 100% way to know that is from God’s perspective as you pointed out.

    This is good. Hope to comment more.

  2. IndependentConservative Says:

    I noticed, even when I speak of having been “convicted” of my sins, that’s not something that comes of myself. The conviction I felt for not being sincere and respectful to God almighty is not self produced. I love everything I do if we let my flesh tell the story :D . But the conviction the Lord has us feel is only something he can reveal to us. I could never be so true to myself without His showing it to me.

    Pearson is the heretic the media is going to keep running stories about for ages. And we know why. Anybody that tells them they can commit their sins and still go to Heaven gets two big thumbs up from them! And I hear the “Vatican” is working on coming into full agreement with Pearson’s twisted views. Baal anyone?

  3. healtheland Says:

    Predestination? Maybe. Once saved always saved? No. http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/battlecrys-ron-luce-gets-in-on-the-contemplative-prayer-scam/#comment-6021

  4. healtheland Says:

    I decided that I would go ahead and make the comments listed above into a post. http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/christians-once-saved-always-saved-i-say-not-so/

  5. IndependentConservative Says:

    So you think God actually goes and make “updates” to the Book of Life? What exactly was the point of putting names in it before the foundation of the world then?

  6. healtheland Says:

    IndependentConservative: That is a great question indeed. However, I am merely going by a strict literal interpretation of the text. I have not succeeded at interpreting it another way as of yet, though I have tried, as all the references to “before the foundation of the world” vex me. But the truth is that you do have the theological term apostasy, and it is based in scripture. http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_a-b.htm#Apostacy calls apostasy “The falling away from the faith. It is a revolt against the truth of God’s word by a believer. It can also describe a group or church organization that has ‘fallen away’ from the truths of Christianity as revealed in the Bible.” Biblegateway gives these scripture references for it in their topical index: http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/topical_resource.php?source=1&tid=337.
    Yet, all the verses that refer to predestination, election, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, etc. are there. I used to deny it, but I find TULIP (not that I ever had any problem with the “T”) virtually whenever I read the Bible. But then again, the apostasy stuff is there too. So, the challenge for me is finding some way of resolving the two.

  7. IndependentConservative Says:

    The apostate falls in Matthew 7:21-23 and the Lord never knew them. They never were saved, although from our vantage point, we counted them as one of the saints because WE didn’t know until they denied the faith that they were not truly saved. And there are others who will be exposed when the Lord comes that we never knew were not called to the Lord.

  8. healtheland Says:

    Ah. That is something that I will have to prayerfully consider then. I NEVER knew you does not mean “I once knew you but now I no longer.”

  9. fourpointer Says:

    Ironically, I had just added this quote from Spurgeon to my sidebar yesterday:

    “I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love.”

    Some other passages that deal with our being chosen by GOD, and not the other way around–John 6:44, Ephesians 1:4, and John 10:2-4.

    And as far as “Once Saved, Always Saved”–that’s really a trite way of saying that GOD is able to keep His own. Consider these three questions:
    1) Who saves us? Does GOD save us, or do we save ourselves?
    2) Does GOD know what you will do in the future?
    3) Is GOD going to consider someone to be one of His sheep if they’re only going to go off and leave Him, and bring Him shame (Remember Exodus 32)?

    Many people think of the doctrine of the “Perseverance of the Saints” as “greasy grace”, and that you can say a little prayer, and believe for a little while, and then go off and do your own thing and still be saved (Charles Stanley used to preach this, not sure if he still does). However, consider John 10:3-5, Hebrews 10:14, and Hebrews 7:22-27.

    Some people ask, “Well, what about Judas?” In John 17:12, Jesus tells us that Judas was the “son of perdition”, that he was never one of His sheep to begin with, and that all the ones the Father gave Him He kept.

    For a really good explanation of the “Five Points” of Calvinism, check out John Piper here.

  10. art123 Says:

    A truth that many churches will not preach about.

  11. IndependentConservative Says:

    A truth that many churches will not preach about.

    Playing on fear can be a rather profitable venture :D .

  12. Independent Conservative Says:

    The Apostle Paul Knew Predestination is Real.

    Paul makes it clear when addressing believers on the Lord Jesus Christ, that predestination is 100% truth. His words, from God, through Jesus Christ, by way of the Holy Spirit leave no room for debate.

    Ephesians 1:3-14 (New King James Version)

  13. Once Saved Always Saved: Is This How The Holy Spirit Works? « Heal The Land With Spiritual Warfare Says:

    [...] Posted by healtheland on July 19th, 2007 Well, for this I have to credit (or blame) the most excellent brother Laz, even if he didn’t do it on purpose! Motivated by a post asserting the opposite by Independent Conservative, I posted by beliefs Christians: Once Saved Always Saved? I Say Not So! to which Laz made this reply during which he referenced the argument of a oneness pentecostal. Perhaps unknown to Laz, the three issues that I am extremely emotional about in no particular order are 1) abortion, 2) anti – Trinitarians, and 3) those who mislead Christians into thinking that they are old covenant Israel (which is done not only explicitly with false Christian teaching but also implicitly through religious right politics). I also somehow totally misunderstood Laz’s post (though I read it several times!) into thinking that he was, while debating the opposite point, citing views that were similar to mine expressed by an anti – Trinitarian in the course of making his argument. Result: I made this comment to the effect of “I will become a five point Calvinist before I ever side with a oneness heretic over a brother in Christ.” Laz quickly corrected my error, but it was too late: I had already said (or written) it, and could not take it back! (Which is precisely why the Bible calls speaking in haste or out of emotion a sin.) So, I was stuck thinking about the issue all day long, and the excellent replies that I received from Steven, Marge, Marcus, Laz, Independent Conservative, etc. weren’t helping. [...]

  14. al Says:

    God bless, IC!

    Frequent visitor to your site, and I enjoy reading your comments here, on Pulpit-Pimps, and on youtube. I want to say outright, though, that I reject Calvinism and TULIP (and no, the “P” in TULIP does not teach eternal security, it actually teaches works salvation,) I reject it as outright heresy and the Bible makes it clear that all 5 points are damnbable. But that is another discussion for another day. I wanted, instead, to address something you brought up here:

    [quote]“God provides us an undeniable revelation of the fact He has always known who His own are and that they would hear His voice, The Book of Life.

    The Book of Life was written before we were born and the names in it have been there since the foundation of the world. It’s perfect and does not need any correction. It has no “blots”. The names in it will receive eternal life and nobody can prevent that. It is not a book that receives periodic updates or revisions. It is still in it’s first printed edition and has no errata, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:27.”
    quote]

    Actually, the book HAS blots, IC. The book of life had the names of EVERY single person who ever lived, and since its inception, the names of those who DO NOT believe on the Lord have been blotted out. Check out this scripture from Exodus 32:32-33:

    “Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I [b]blot[/b] out of my book.”

    The names of all those heathens who worshipped the golden calf were ALREADY WRITTEN in the Book of Life, but God had their names blotted out, so yeah, the Book of Life DOES go through changes, which is something Moses understood and why he interceded on behalf of wicked Israel. Even in Revelation 22:19, we read:

    “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

    That’s a clear and stern warning from God, that those who tamper with the Bible (meaning those who delete verses, add doctrine not sound unto faulty translations and so forth) will have their names blotted out of the Book. How can their names be blotted out if it wasn’t written in from the inception?

    David understood this concept as well. Check out Psalm 69:27-28:

    “Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.”

    Again, names were being blotted out, the Book undergoing changes.

    The more I study Calvinism (the doctrine created by a former Catholic priest who believed in infant baptism and baptismal regeneration and was influenced by a 4th century Roman Catholic psuedo-Gnostic) the more I am convinced it is one of the many harlot children of the Roman Catholic Church according to Revelation 17.

  15. IndependentConservative Says:

    al, first let me say that you’ve never seen me claim “Calvinism”, read 1 Corinthians 3:1-4. I do not claim I am of Calvin, I am of the Lord. So I base my statements on scripture and if that agrees or disagrees with any given person than so be it.

    No the Book of Life does not go through revisions. God is not blotting names and then when the person repents placing their name in the Book of Life all over again.

    The book is perfect and this is why when it was revealed to John in Revelation 17:8, all who never had their names in the book were the ones who marvel at the beast. As well, The Apostle Paul Knew Predestination is Real.

    This is why the Lord Jesus NEVER KNEW those who do lawlessness. They were NEVER those given to Him by the Father, John 10.

    God is sovereign and designed all that is playing out Himself for His glory. This is something the apostle Paul came to understand and God had him note in Romans 9.

  16. al Says:

    hey, IC,

    You said, “No the Book of Life does not go through revisions. God is not blotting names and then when the person repents placing their name in the Book of Life all over again.”

    I never said God blots names out and then puts them back in when a person repents. I simply showed scripture that clearly states that God DOES INDEED blot names out of the Book, period. When those names are blotted out, they have had their last chance at salvation used up. When God had the names of those who worshipped the golden calf blotted out, He followed it up by having them immediately killed, sending them straight to hell. Your name is blotted out only when you die unsaved, or when God ultimately rejects you, according to Romans 1. But the Scripture CLEARLY states that names are blotted out of the Book of Life. That is not debatable, clearly out of God’s own mouth in Exodus 32:33 and Revelation

    Romans 9, by the way, I believe is one of the most misinterpreted chapters in the entire Bible. People who read it claim that it teaches salvation by election, but nowhere in that chapter does it teach that. Romans 9:11-13 has been misapplied to mean salvation, but that is not what is stating. The entire book of Romans has been about one thing- salvation by grace through FAITH, not works, not race, not preference, not anything- FAITH. verses 11-13, for example is clearly illustrating that the purpose of Jacob being called was just to fulfill the scripture that states, “the elder shall serve the younger.” Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau? Well,the Bible tells us why, in Hebrews 12:16-17:

    “Lest there be any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefulyl with tears.”

    Why did God hate Esau and reject him? It wasn’t because God CHOSE to reject Esau, rather it was because Esau rejected God and became a profane person, very consistent with Romans 1:21-32 which teaches that God rejects those who reject him first, consistent with Proverbs 1. Same thing with Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart only because Pharaoh was already in his own mind above God and was already in a position like an anti-christ to refuse and reject God, so God raised him up for the purpose of showing His power. We see God harden his heart, but many times we also see Pharaoh harden his own heart as well.

    And Ephesians 1:3-14 is not talking about predestinating those who will be saved, rather if you read the context carefully, you’ll see that what is being predestined is not who is getting saved, but rather what the purpose and goal is for those who get saved, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love (verse 4,) and that we should be to the praise of his glory (verse 12.)In other words, those who are saved were not predestined to be saved, rather they were predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son. This is confirmed in Romans 8:29:

    “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

    In Christ.

  17. IndependentConservative Says:

    When those names are blotted out, they have had their last chance at salvation used up.

    And tell me how you reconcile this with 1 Peter 3:18-22? I contend that those disobedient folks obviously got an opportunity for salvation when Christ visited Hell. If it were just the people in “Abraham’s bosom” who had an opportunity for salvation, Christ would not have preached to people who “formerly were disobedient”. They got an opportunity for redemption from their former disobedience. That was a one time Christ visits Hell special that is never stated will happen for anyone going to Hell after Christ’s resurrection. All who are disobedient NOW after the resurrection of Christ go to hell and then they go to the Lake of Fire, the 2nd death, Revelation 20:14. Meaning, that the old covenant did not bring eternal life in Christ, Hebrews 11:39-40. The old covenant only prepared the way for Christ. So to cite a “book” noted in Exodus was more likely regarding the earthly promised land and those who would reside there.

    God knew the outcome for Jacob and Esau before it occurred. He is God. This is why He has a book for His Son who is One with Him, The Book of Life, that list His Son’s sheep. Who are the children of God.

    You see people making choices, God sees people fulfilling His ultimate plan. It is God who opens the heart of those who accept Him. Flesh can not desire good. It is a work of the Lord ALONE. Ephesians 1 only reinforces the point.

  18. al Says:

    Hey IC,

    You said, “And tell me how you reconcile this with 1 Peter 3:18-22? I contend that those disobedient folks obviously got an opportunity for salvation when Christ visited Hell.”

    i Peter 3:18-22 isn’t talking about Christ visiting Hell. That’s covered in Acts 2:25-31, Ephesians 4:9-10, and Matthew 12:40. A lot of folks have been confused about the word “prison” here, but if you search the Bible you’ll see that the prison referred to here is the same prison mentioned in Isaiah 61:1:

    “1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

    The prison mentioned in both Isaiah 61:1 and 1 Peter 3:18-22 is the prison of sin that every man walks in prior to hearing the gospel, the captivity of death until the gospel is presented to us. We were all formerly disobedient until we heard the gospel and obeyed it.

    All the souls that went to hell in the Old Testament STAYED in hell. All the Old Testament saints went to heaven. Abraham, Elijah, Moses, and Enoch attest to that fact. “Abraham’s bosom” is just another term for heaven. There has always been heaven and hell, and the soul of man either went to heaven after being saved, or condemned to hell. Read Ecclesiastes 3:21:

    “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

    Job, the oldest book in the entire Bible has this famous passage:

    Job 1:6- “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. ”

    Who were the sons of God? They were born again believers in heaven when Satan came among them and accused Job before God.

    You said, “The old covenant only prepared the way for Christ. So to cite a “book” noted in Exodus was more likely regarding the earthly promised land and those who would reside there.”

    No, the book cited in Exodus is the SAME BOOK cited in Revelation 22:19, the same book cited in Psalm 69:28. The same words are used in all three passages: blot and book, referencing the names of the wicked each time. Clearly if the Book of Life existed from the foundation of the world, then it can only be the same book cited throughout Scripture.

    The Old covenant was a foreshadow of Christ, but even the Old Testament saints knew of Christ, and they believed God and were saved. Read jesus’ own words:

    John 5:39- Search the scriptures; for in themye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    John 5:46- For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me.

    Christ himself stated that men like Moses wrote of the Messiah, and even Job wrote of his redeemer that liveth, so since God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins ALL the saints knew of the Gospel and were saved by grace through faith. That is why from Genesis to Revelation, if a man died unsaved he went to hell, period. And from the foundation of the world, God had a Book of Life with the names of everyone who lived, and only those names He doesn’t blot out, those names of those who believe on him, remain.

    you said, “You see people making choices, God sees people fulfilling His ultimate plan. It is God who opens the heart of those who accept Him. Flesh can not desire good. It is a work of the Lord ALONE. Ephesians 1 only reinforces the point.”

    I don’t see people making choices. I see God TELLING people to make choices:

    Deuteronomy 30:19- I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Deuteronomy 1:26- Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

    Proverbs 1:24- Because I have called, and ye refused: I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded.

    Matthew 23:37b- I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    John 5:40- And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (notice He doesn’t say CANNOT, He says WILL not.)

    I agree, it is God who opens the heart of those who accept him, 1 Corinthians 3:6. It is the work of God, but not alone. He requires the aid of man for His glory, or else Matthew 28:19-20, Romans 10:14-15, 1 Corinthians 3:3:9, and 2 Corinthians 5:18 among many others would be a lie. God ALONE gets the glory, but the work He is doing He has chosen to do it through MEN who wish to deny themselves and follow Christ. Ephesians 1 only emphasizes the goal that God has for all born again believers, which is to become like Christ, and one day we will be as perfect as Christ. Glory to God!

    IndependentConservative reply on January 23rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm :

    I had to note here, that regarding 1 Peter 3:18-22, it appears this passage is speaking about how Christ via Spirit had Noah preaching in his time to those who failed to heed his warning and for their disobedience they are now in prison awaiting their final judgment.

    I just wanted to make my thoughts on this clear after further review, prayer and study on the passage.

    It makes no mention of those spirits who were disobedient ever leaving prison. They are there now and will be till judgement. The obedient were in “Abraham’s bosom” and are with Christ now.

    Overall I think the issue here between myself and Al was that Al feels some OT scriptures were talking about the Lambs Book of Life. While I feel those OT versus were speaking about the Book of the Living, which simply means to be physically alive in flesh.

  19. IndependentConservative Says:

    Well Al, we both beleive the Lord Jesus is our hope for salvation despite our disagreements on what happened with some souls before Christ came to earth in flesh. And while we disagree on some things that transpired with some souls while He was in the grave we agree He rose again and we both agree that He did not “suffer” in Hell as some like Fred Price attempt to imply. You feel God must get aid from man for His glory, I disagree, but we both give glory to God for being God and giving us His Son as our Lord and Savior.

    I don’t see our disagreement as one that will cost either of us our salvation. I don’t see either side of our disagreement as somehow being heresy.

    But unfortunately many saints are not even to the point that we are, where these things can be discussed in love. You know we’ve got many who have not yet made it beyond false prophets. So while we disagree here on this matter, you’ll certainly see me right with you bringing light to those under the strong delusion of the false teachers.

    God Bless you brother.

  20. al Says:

    Amen, brother IC, amen.

  21. mjones Says:

    Welcome Home

    Melvin

  22. IndependentConservative Says:

    There is some confusion by some regarding Old Covenant scriptures’ mention of a book of the living in verses like Psalm 69:28 and the “book” mentioned in Exodus. Moses was NOT asking to be sent to hell. The “book” they spoke of in the old covenant simply was regarding physical life. That is not the Lamb’s Book of Life which notes all covered by the blood of Jesus for the gift of everlasting life. The Lamb’s Book of Life was not noted in scripture till after Jesus the Lamb was slain and resurrected.

  23. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Regarding the post, I was curious as to what someone’s thoughts would be on this:

    (Genesis 6:6,7) – “And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7And the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

    Exodus 32

    The Golden Calf

    1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

    2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, [b] O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

    5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD.” 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. [c] Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

    7 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

    9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

    11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “O LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

    “Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves,” (Jer. 26:19).

    2 Chronicles 33:10-13

    10 The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention. 11 So the LORD brought against them the army commanders of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh prisoner, put a hook in his nose, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon. 12 In his distress he sought the favor of the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. 13 And when he prayed to him, the LORD was moved by his entreaty and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD is God.

    Jonah 3

    Jonah Goes to Nineveh

    1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”

    3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city—a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

    6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
    “By the decree of the king and his nobles:

    Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.

    Jonah 3:10 – “When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.”

    There are, of course, many other example besides this that could be brought up, but I was wondering what anyone thought of this. Is it possible for God to change His mind on things……& moreover, is it possible that through our actions man can influence God in certain decisions He does……or can He not change how He works with people throughout history?

  24. IndependentConservative Says:

    God knows what you’re going to do before you do it. So you can’t “change his mind”, because he knows your mind. He just lets you know you did the good thing once you finally do it and if you do the bad thing he’ll call you on it.

    Also see, A Video Discussion of Predestination.

  25. Gxg--G2 Says:

    Cool video…..& many thanks for posting it. It was very informative, & the graciousness of their presentation really blessed me. It’s not often you hear a GRACIOUS PRESENTATION of Election nowadays:

    (Edited by IndependentConservative: Brother, like Melvin I’m going to have to start cutting you back a bit. You’re making posts that go on forever and it’s time you invest in the effort of starting your own blog.)

  26. Gxg--G2 Says:

    My bad, Brah.

    To note, though, I’ve actually been working on a Blog for sometime & finally got it operational awhile back. It’s not much, but it’s a start:

    http://emissary7.wordpress.com/

    Love to have you visit sometime, brah

  27. IndependentConservative Says:

    Cool.

    When you’ve got a comment that gets a little lengthy, it should be a post on your blog and you can just link to it here with a comment.

  28. Gxg--G2 Says:

    If you could please let me know how to do so, I’d appreciate it. The furthest I know to do is to link, but I’ve yet to discover how to get it like your/others, where I can simply click on your name & it’ll take me to your site AUTOMATICALLY.

    Tips (& by the way, what do you think of the site so far?)

  29. IndependentConservative Says:

    Gxg–G2 – Log out of this blog, then log back in. You will be taken to a profile page that you can update with your blog address.

  30. art123 Says:

    I believe that the subject of predestination has been a controversial subject not only because it’s real, but people cannot grasp it.  Like you, IC it was the grace of God that allowed me to understand it.  Many are destined for damnation and only a few would receive salvation.  Jesus Himself said that many are called, but few are chosen.  However, it must be played out.  It is a journey map that God has already prepared.  Churches are not going to teach this and a blogger nearly cursed me to damnation, calling me a person who adopted heresy on another site.  I would be a liar if I said that everyone can make a decision to get saved, the lie that churches teach.  That would contradict Romans 8 chapter.  Mr. Jones of pulpit pimps simplified predestination to his best, but a lot of people are not getting it, leaving debates.  I’ve been blind and in the dark, but still learning about the Lord, so I understand.

  31. bulldogg2317 Says:

    About predestination- Yes God has a plan for everybody. But here’s the thing, we have a thing called “free-will” meaning we can choose not to follow God’s plan. I believe it was God’s plan for Adam and Eve to live in the Garden of Eden forever, but adam and eve made the choice to not follow God’s plan and ate the forbidden fruit. Therefore he sent Jesus to provide salvation, but agian you have to choose to follow Christ. Some choose to some do not, it’s there choice. I do not believe in predestination because if there is predestiantion that would mean it was God’s plan for man to sin in the garden which would mean he caused man to sin which would go aginst scripture that say’s in James God will never tempt us to do evil, so how can you say that there is predistination, because if you believe in predestination that would mean man had no choice but to sin, when we do have a choice to sin or not, to repent or not, or to follow Jesus or not.

    IndependentConservative reply on May 2nd, 2008 at 9:45 am :

    Hi bulldogg2317,

    If the plan was that Adam and Eve would never sin, why was the crucifixion of Christ God’s predetermined plan?

    Acts 2:23 (New American Standard Bible)

    23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    God is the potter, we are the clay. He knows our actions before we make them and He made us through Jesus Christ who was pre-planned to be placed on the cross for our sakes.

    Free will is what God saves the elect from and He selected who is elect, before we were even born.

    Matthew 25:34 (New American Standard Bible)

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    Was Paul trying to choose Christ? NO. He was trying to kills every Christian he could find, but being of the elect, Paul HAD TO SUBMIT TO CHRIST, Acts 9. It was the predestinated plan of God. Paul refered to himself and others as “prisoners of Christ Jesus”, see Ephesians 3:1 and Philemon 1:23. Which is exactly where you want to be.

    Only those drawn to Jesus can accept Him, have you read John 6? (Please read it in full.) Those who are not drawn to Christ will never believe. Those who are the sheep of the Lord Jesus were given to Him by the Father.

    John 10:29 (New American Standard Bible)

    29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    The elect were given, not the product of their own free will choosing, but God’s sovereign election.

    God does not make anyone sin, simply allowing “free will” causes that. Not my will, but His will be done.

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